PE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> Community Owned Doomstead

Poll

Would you consider in participating in this type of farm?

Yes
10 (90.9%)
No
1 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: February 15, 2013, 06:04:46 PM

AuthorTopic: Community Owned Doomstead  (Read 55313 times)

Offline roamer

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Community Owned Doomstead
« on: February 05, 2013, 06:04:46 PM »
I'm wondering how many people on this board would be interested in participating in an  resilient post industrial land based farm site.It would above all be a demonstration site for best practice post industrial farm and doomstead techniques.  In addition  it would be a model for creating replicable distributed resilient development sites abroad.

The farm would be relatively simple, a well run best practice low tech farm (Salatin style pasture based meat/http://www.amazon.com/Restoration-Agriculture-Mark-Shepard/dp/1601730357/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360114263&sr=8-1&keywords=restoration+agricultureShepard style perennial crops+annual produce).  With ultra low tech and low cost infrastructure (think solar shacks, earth huts ect).

This type of farm though is not happening because the land capital barrier to entry is far too high, best case scenario has such a farm running break even to negative cash flows for the first 3-5 years with potential profit after that point.    My thought though is if a group of seriously interested people got together and split initial capital and received corresponding ownership and stake in the board that it might be a nice hedge for certain doomers portfolios.  Ultimately if the doomstead is well constructed and consists primarily of productive agriculture your share will be valuable whenever you want to get out.

What makes this more viable than ever is that to be an effective board member or active owner one need not be near the farm, webcams and skype could keep you in the stream of the operation better than ever.  I also think the shares could be set fairly low.  For example imagine an ultra low overhead open source doomstead with initial capital costs of $150,000.  Shares could start at $1000 a piece, setting an upper limit on 150 participants.  Payouts would come annually at the end of harvest, with farm profit shares or if you like and are close farm food.  This is not a CSA, you'd own a chunk of the operation and it'd be backed by increasingly productive farmland.  More importantly you'd get a fair say in trying to build a reality and future you want to see. 

I could draft the idea in alot more detail but I am just curious if any here would find such a concept of interest?

Online RE

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2013, 07:30:13 PM »
I have tried to sell this idea on a few occassions.  The price was $3000 for a Single Share, $5000 for a couple, $6000 for up to 4 people.  I would buy 2 $6000 shares, which I probably won't use myself but may give away to other Needy Diners.

The main issue was finding an agreeable location for it since Diners are so spread out.

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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2013, 07:52:08 PM »
I'd definitely be interested in living somewhere like that.  Don't have money, but I'm capable.  I could come up with a couple grand to get me in by asking family for the money.  But then, location, and I'm in school for the next year and a half. 

But yeah, I'd be interested. 

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2013, 08:07:22 PM »
Roamer
Its a good idea, but i wouldnt invite in just anybody you dont know, diners excepted of course. I dont think 1000 is enough to be a serious commitment, better would be a min 5000 per person to join. You could have an exception for persons prepared to live and work there, people who have a lot of time but little money. You would need a constitution/contract.
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Offline WHD

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2013, 08:31:45 PM »
Roamer,

If I can sell my house, I would be free to help out building the infrastructure, being a builder and a gardener. I'd be interested too, in your ideas, and where you had in mind. Land prices are a problem though, with all that god damn money flowing in from International Investors. 

Online RE

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2013, 11:06:37 PM »
I'd definitely be interested in living somewhere like that.  Don't have money, but I'm capable.  I could come up with a couple grand to get me in by asking family for the money.  But then, location, and I'm in school for the next year and a half. 

The 3 locations that got the most support were the Ozarks, West Virginia and Western Wisconson.

I remember doing some online hunting, and found a 100 acre parcel in WV for $2K an acre.

I just dug up a smaller parcel, 16 acres in the Ozarks for $60K, and Owner will finance.

http://www.ozarkbacktrails.com/

For this one, with sufficient Diner interest, I would put up 25% of the price for 10 shares and sell up to 30 additional shares at $2K/share.

Would have to do more research to make sure there is good water supply of course, along with any building codes that might affect how it is used.  Sanitation codes are important here, since putting in a septic system etc can get quite expensive.

For worthy but impoverished Diners, if you can't come up with full share costs, you can have one of mine and work it off.  Kids under 12 are half shares.

I would consider this a workable idea with 10 other full shares bought going in.  Only Diners and people with a Recommendation from another Diner buying in are eligible.

I envision small dwellings easily constructed, mainly Geodesic domes.  Perhaps a Longhouse style community building as well.  Sleeping/Reading/Storytelling quarters mainly, most living will be outdoors. Small wood burning stove in each dwelling.  No plumbing except in the Longhouse which would have communal cooking and bathroom possibly for bathing.   Waste to be collected and processed for fertilizer, not flushed to a sewer.

Lots of other stuff to work out of course, but you first need the initial 10 or so Principals to work that stuff out. I don't think we have enough Diners yet who would buy in.  The 40 or so I consider around the minimum for starting a successful Tribe.

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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2013, 02:35:28 AM »
Roamer,

If I can sell my house, I would be free to help out building the infrastructure, being a builder and a gardener. I'd be interested too, in your ideas, and where you had in mind. Land prices are a problem though, with all that god damn money flowing in from International Investors.

WHD
If youre still having a hard time finding work since you left the bank a while ago,  and like seeing the world, who doesnt?  heres an idea; I could fly you here return for a season all expenses paid and your home expenses paid, to impart ME those skills, since my DIY jobs are obvious unprofessionally done, and the last year of trying to grow fruit and veg has been not so much, well almost a total flop really. Almost everything is still alive but not really growing or producing. You could then even travel around more fruitpicking if youre not in any hurry.
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Offline roamer

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2013, 03:55:38 PM »
OK well that is positive enough feedback for me to share the full idea here.  Since I am from western wisconsin and grew up on a farm near there and know the area ect.  i will work up the initial business model for that area.  I have seen several favorable properties in the 45-150k for this type of project. 

I'll blow my cover on this project too as I am actually going to be reaching out to a much larger audience than DD'er.  I plan to finish my business plan and video tape my pitch to potential participants.  Just give me a couple of weeks, literally in the belly of the beast, the power plant I am employed at is going to be coming online after a generator failure and significant other work.  Its going to be interesting for me as I am expected to  startup two new systems which I have been thrown in on the last two weeks...

I think I can round enough participants of the right type to have a good shot at this.  From my experience both in corporate hierarchies and communal doomsteads though the devil of such a venture is in the organizational structure and expectations.  I'm going to give that a good amount of focus in my proposal.  In the meantime maybe you guys can draft up your thoughts on how best to manage a "doom tribe". 

Online RE

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2013, 02:59:20 AM »
I think I can round enough participants of the right type to have a good shot at this.  From my experience both in corporate hierarchies and communal doomsteads though the devil of such a venture is in the organizational structure and expectations.  I'm going to give that a good amount of focus in my proposal.  In the meantime maybe you guys can draft up your thoughts on how best to manage a "doom tribe".

Coincidentally, I spoke on the phone today with a good friend in WI, where I worked for a couple of years.  We haven't chatted for over a year.  She wants me to come back to WI.  Not sure if I can get her interested (she is not a Doomer), but I definitely would buy some shares in that Nabe.

It is difficult if not impossible to a priori figure out how to set something like this up without knowing who the people are getting involved in it.

My basic suggestion on a Political Level is to go with a Traditional Council of Elders format, with younger Leaders in various areas taking specific roles for getting Tasks accomplished.

You definitely gotta know the Demographic Distribution in the Tribe before you can hammer this out though.

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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2013, 04:00:09 AM »
I think I can round enough participants of the right type to have a good shot at this.  From my experience both in corporate hierarchies and communal doomsteads though the devil of such a venture is in the organizational structure and expectations.  I'm going to give that a good amount of focus in my proposal.  In the meantime maybe you guys can draft up your thoughts on how best to manage a "doom tribe".

Coincidentally, I spoke on the phone today with a good friend in WI, where I worked for a couple of years.  We haven't chatted for over a year.  She wants me to come back to WI.  Not sure if I can get her interested (she is not a Doomer), but I definitely would buy some shares in that Nabe.

It is difficult if not impossible to a priori figure out how to set something like this up without knowing who the people are getting involved in it.

My basic suggestion on a Political Level is to go with a Traditional Council of Elders format, with younger Leaders in various areas taking specific roles for getting Tasks accomplished.

You definitely gotta know the Demographic Distribution in the Tribe before you can hammer this out though.

RE

Would someone like me fit in, where would I store my Gold and know that it was safe, any golf courses or fine restaurants allowed in like a Morton's, where would I buy my St Julian wines??

                                             
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« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 04:08:59 AM by Golden Oxen »

Online RE

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2013, 04:34:48 AM »
Would someone like me fit in, where would I store my Gold and know that it was safe, any golf courses or fine restaurants allowed in like a Morton's, where would I buy my St Julian wines??

The nature of such a Tribe is that all resources you bring in are Pooled as Tribal Resource.

So for instance my VAST collection of Guns & Ammo, my Solar PV Panels etc are a Tribal Resource.  Your collection of Gold Coins is a Tribal Resource. Etc.

In theory, you could hold back some Resource as Personal Property if it was stored Offsite where only YOU knew its location or had access to it. So I for instance could have offsite accounts storing Boozebucks, long as those things hold up anyhow.  You could Bury Gold Coins offsite wth Lat/Lon coordinates only YOU know.

Any resource On Site which everybody know about is Communal Resource.  If you have 50 cans of Tuna everyone knows about, you can't keep them for yourself if the fishing sucks and everybody is hungry.  Same with hoarded Gold Coins, etc.

Decisions on how Communal Resource gets distributed is mainly up to the Council of Elders.

Far as Wine goes, you likely would have to ferment it yourself.

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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2013, 04:51:04 AM »
Would someone like me fit in, where would I store my Gold and know that it was safe, any golf courses or fine restaurants allowed in like a Morton's, where would I buy my St Julian wines??

The nature of such a Tribe is that all resources you bring in are Pooled as Tribal Resource.

So for instance my VAST collection of Guns & Ammo, my Solar PV Panels etc are a Tribal Resource.  Your collection of Gold Coins is a Tribal Resource. Etc.

In theory, you could hold back some Resource as Personal Property if it was stored Offsite where only YOU knew its location or had access to it. So I for instance could have offsite accounts storing Boozebucks, long as those things hold up anyhow.  You could Bury Gold Coins offsite wth Lat/Lon coordinates only YOU know.

Any resource On Site which everybody know about is Communal Resource.  If you have 50 cans of Tuna everyone knows about, you can't keep them for yourself if the fishing sucks and everybody is hungry.  Same with hoarded Gold Coins, etc.

Decisions on how Communal Resource gets distributed is mainly up to the Council of Elders.

Far as Wine goes, you likely would have to ferment it yourself.

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If I show up with a vast store of my belongings and everyone else turns out to have nothing but debts can I turn around and have Oddjob take me back home in my Rolls ??

                                     
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2013, 05:33:39 AM »
Would someone like me fit in, where would I store my Gold and know that it was safe, any golf courses or fine restaurants allowed in like a Morton's, where would I buy my St Julian wines??

The nature of such a Tribe is that all resources you bring in are Pooled as Tribal Resource.

So for instance my VAST collection of Guns & Ammo, my Solar PV Panels etc are a Tribal Resource.  Your collection of Gold Coins is a Tribal Resource. Etc.

In theory, you could hold back some Resource as Personal Property if it was stored Offsite where only YOU knew its location or had access to it. So I for instance could have offsite accounts storing Boozebucks, long as those things hold up anyhow.  You could Bury Gold Coins offsite wth Lat/Lon coordinates only YOU know.

Any resource On Site which everybody know about is Communal Resource.  If you have 50 cans of Tuna everyone knows about, you can't keep them for yourself if the fishing sucks and everybody is hungry.  Same with hoarded Gold Coins, etc.

Decisions on how Communal Resource gets distributed is mainly up to the Council of Elders.

Far as Wine goes, you likely would have to ferment it yourself.

RE

IMHO That path is ultimately the BEST,  but in practice will suit your extended family zombie late comers just fine, but will put off everyone you need to get started in the first place, unless they are commited socialist idealists like on a kibbutz commune.

People have to be able to sell the idea to their families or partners, some who want 5 star luxury like a 40 foot winnebago RV with aircon etc as a bare minimum. The family who makes sacrifices in advance to have the RV while their relatives are living it up right now and will turn up with a tent maybe, wont be prepared to give up all ideas of personal property, the concept is too alien at this point. Just a hypothetical there.





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Online RE

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2013, 05:34:49 AM »

If I show up with a vast store of my belongings and everyone else turns out to have nothing but debts can I turn around and have Oddjob take me back home in my Rolls ??


That brings up a good point, which is what do you bring IN in terms of either Resources or Skills?

Example.  You buy a share, show up with 50 lbs of Gold Coins. WHD shows up with Zippo Gold but a VERY Green Thumb. Some other dimwit shows up with NEITHER Gold Coins OR good knowledge of how to grow Potatoes, but he ALSO paid his Dues for his share before TSHTF.

In the long term, those with Skills are going to make the Tribe work, in the short term those with plentiful resources like Gold Coins or Guns can help it survive long enough for the skills to play out. 

Those who bring NOTHING and sieve off the Tribe may be tolerated for a while, but eventually SHUNNED. Long term, unless you provide value to the Tribe, it won't support you.

Bringing in good Resources buys you Time and Good Will.  Long term, you have to provide other value to the tribe.  If you cannot find a way to be of value, it is time to take the Last Kayak Trip out to Sea.

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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2013, 05:57:10 AM »
Talking seriously, it would appear a very daunting task indeed to find a large group that were compatible, even though they all shared a similar vision and ideal.   :dontknow:

 

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