AuthorTopic: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution  (Read 24442 times)

Offline g

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2013, 02:23:54 PM »
Your claim that I was baiting the forum and you wish we could rise above such behavior was particularly offensive to me.

Good, because you do it frequently and then sit back and wait for somebody to take the bait. Most of the time I manage to ignore it.

As long as I'm offending people, I might as well offend you too, because you are completely culpable. People who want to bring their religion to the internet are disgusting. Give it a fucking rest, why don't you.

Well thank you for your tolerance and good manners.

Personally, since you opened the door, I am sick and tired of the pictures of the new toys you purchase weekly for your play pen the stead.
Can't you just buy yourself a Lionel train set like the other children who never grew the fuck up and spare us, please, give it a fucking rest will you.

Offline Eddie

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2013, 02:36:24 PM »
Yeah, I'm sure a fair number of the readers here aren't doing diddly squat to prep for collapse, and probably feel the same way you do about my experiments in the real world, that involve a real attempt to do something to actually better the odds for me and my family to survive a real emergency.

Coming here is a sort of social experiment for me. I expect I'm more like impermanence than I want to admit. I never met a group yet that I quite dovetailed into seamlessly. This one , weird as it is, has felt better than most. But it's a time waster.

I actually was hoping it might help somebody, or attract some real preppers to the table to talk here. But it always just seems to be the same bunch of do-nothing bullshitters. (With some very notable exceptions), but I'm not sure it's worth it to put up with the daily crapola.

Oh, btw , kiss my ass. You're a pompous old fart.


What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2013, 02:36:51 PM »
Hey wheres the christmas cheer? steady on eddie.
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Offline g

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2013, 02:42:29 PM »
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Oh, btw , kiss my ass. You're a pompous old fart.

Likewise Edward, tongue my ass whenever you wish.

BTW, you are not exactly a kid anymore going by your picture. Grecian formula 5 might help in the hair dept.

Offline g

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2013, 02:46:41 PM »
Hey wheres the christmas cheer? steady on eddie.

Thanks UB,  Time to end the conversation. Sorry Doc, just a temper tantrum. 

Offline Ka

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2013, 03:17:11 PM »
I was trying to remember a time when I WASN'T aware of an inside. I'm sure I wasn't at some early point in childhood, but I'm not sure exactly when.

As I understand it (which is not at all very well), children only acquire an ego at about age six of seven, so that's a kind of minimum limit. But clearly there are other considerations, like being able to focus inwardly. Or maybe have the ability to question one's own reasoning.

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I would say that I was aware by age 16, when I began to seriously experiment with falling down the rabbit hole with LSD. And by age 19 I was turned on to Alan Watts The Book. I've been thinking about dualism/non-dualism since then at least. More time spent thinking about it hasn't made it easier to understand though.

Me too, though my book was Huxley's Perennial Philosophy. But the big question for me is why that didn't stick. Harold Bloom once described himself as (I forget the exact wording, but something like) "an agnostic with occasional yearnings for mystical gnosis". That describes me from late teens to 37.

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I would hazard a guess that it isn't age as much as personality type that influences the onset of the kind of introspection you're discussing. That and exposure to Eastern thought, at least through books or some other avenue.

Well, I'm not sure. Personality type is obviously a factor, but I think age does play a role as well. Take the reasoning ability of a teenager vs. older people. The logic used is the same, but the former seems to have little ability to critique his own reasoning, that is, to be able to detach themselves from their own thinking. Not that all that many adults bother to do so either -- I guess that is where personality type makes a difference.

I also find it interesting that Jewish mystics say that one should not start studying Kabbalah unless one (a) knows the Law (i.e., Talmud), (b) is married, and (c) is at least forty.

Offline RE

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2013, 04:31:00 PM »
I think you guys need to take some Chill Pills.  Lighten Up.














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Offline agelbert

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2013, 05:50:52 PM »
Eddie,
You are on a ROLL, today. Yahoo! If I didn't know you were from Texas, I would know now!  :icon_mrgreen:

Thank you for your enjoyment of my Renewable energy support.  :emthup: :icon_sunny:

Of course I am prone to a bit of sermonizing and vitriol now and then.  ;D

It goes with territory. Eddie, I have been THERE with college professors and health care professionals for the last 30 years or so on the intolerance, disdain, disparagement and continuous smirks about being ignorant and a magical thinker.

For nearly 8 months you have consistently weighed on the issue of Christians in particular and believers in God in general maintaining repeatedly that they are magical thinkers as if you are discussing root canals or some other truth of your experience and profession.

Every time you do that, you are moving into religious territory and defending your world view. It should NOT bother you that we challenge it. But every time you talk about believers in God and scoffers of evolution like they are idiots, you are opening yourself up to debate.

If you don't want to talk religion, that's cool. Don't say we are magical thinkers. Every time you do, I will challenge you.

Do you think I have no clue where you are at? You live in Texas! You married someone who's father was a preacher, right? I know how intolerable and stuffed shirty those people can be. I know how pompous and rigid they can be too. Hypocrisy is rife in Evangelical Christianity. But they don't have a fucking franchise on magical thinking and hypocrisy. When they get legalistic about 6 day creation or the Sabbath or whatever, they are justifying such wishful thinking with magical thinking that Moses was God's stenographer. But to group people who believe God created us with judgmental legalists is wrong, offensive, objectionable and unscientific. I do admit it's easier to group us all together as whackos not worthy serious consideration.

I have argued against evolution while I believed it was the way things happened since 1985 because my profs could not answer my questions about it logically.

I read a lot of science articles and the word "evolution" is like flies on shit for them. They just cannot write without using that word. I've got one about E. Coli "evolving" for the few years through thousands of generations in closed containers by varying nutritional content (the latest buzzword in evolutionary circles because they are in the process of shit canning natural selection in favor of caloric forced gene expression - more fairy tales  ::)).

The E. Coli is STILL, low and behold, E. Coli but one group metabolizes sugars at a few percentage points (about 3%) faster than the other so that is EVOLUTION!  Give me a fucking break here! The term ADAPTATION has been captured by the evolutionists. Adaptation is gene expression to environmental conditions from a pre-existing package. That is NOT EVOLUTION.

WE intelligently designed E. Coli to make insulin by putting some plasmids into it but in millions of years it didn't do it on its own, did it?

Remember those coin flipping exercises in genetics? You know that it takes a LONG time to get students to obtain 9 tails and one head or vice versa by each person flipping one coin ten times. Now to get protein folded amino acids just right (assuming you HAVE all the amino acids you need all present) you need SEQUENTIAL 9 to one "mutations" (gross simplification but you get the idea). You need thousands of SEQUENTIAL (as in one after the other with NO GAPS) 9 to one mutations for that first cell. So if it takes one million years of primeval soup amino acid random folding to get ONE key protein, you need to go FACTORIAL (million times a million times a million, etc.) to get ALL the protein sequences needed for life.

There isn't enough time in a 14 billion year universe for that.

Remember all that stuff about vaccines and evolution? Remember how the cocci this or the bacilli that will "EVOLVE" antibiotic resistance? Hello? They are STILL cocci this or bacillus that, are they not? They didn't become E. Coli. There was adaptation, not evolution.

But they DID get some foreign genetic material so that must be evolution, right? WRONG. The "evolutionary advantage" that allowed them to become more virulent did not change their species. They adapted BECAUSE their DNA package allowed a plasmid for antibiotic resistance to be incorporated as part of its original design. The process by which Streptococcus pneumonia  metabolizes sugars and reproduces DID NOT CHANGE. It is STILL  Streptococcus pneumonia. But we were TAUGHT that was EVIDENCE of EVOLUTION. NOT!

What we did to E. Coli for insulin production is crude. It's still E. Coli even though we altered its metabolism. Ther comes a point in messing with bacterial DNA when the changes are rejected and it dies because every life form has programming to prevent becoming whatever it ISN'T. Nature breeds TRUE. DNA edits fastidiously to AVOID change. You know this.

Natural DE-selection works to cull species but natural selection has never produced an ORIGIN OF SPECIES as Darwin postulated.

If Darwin had seen this short video, he would NEVER have tried to push the theory of evolution. Evolution is story telling magical thinking. If you don't agree, show me some proof that it is occurring. Instead of "change is constant in the natural wordl" meme we had hammered into us by evolutionary thinking, science has discovered that the DNA inside cells fight change continuously through very sophisticated editing.


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/LY0hZLDOb00#&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/LY0hZLDOb00#&fs=1</a>
HOW can ANYBODY believe the above happened RANDOMLY?







 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 06:29:44 PM by agelbert »
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline impermanence

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2013, 07:08:02 PM »
Interesting exchange.

This is what happens when people are attached to their thinking, i.e., frustration at the inability to communicate, and anger at the others' refusal to affirm.  More than anything, people want others to tell them they actually exist.

Being able to see cognition as transient allows tremendous freedom from the above, a great release, allowing oneself to see the true nature of the thinking mind.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2013, 05:23:31 AM »
You say 'micro' I say 'macro, lets call the whole thing off and just use 'evolution'.
We agree, it's a mechanism. An 'evolutionary mechanism'.

We don't agree. It's a theory, not a mechanism. The cornerstone of this theory is common descent/ancestry for all living beings, and that is what is being disputed by AG and I.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #40 on: December 19, 2013, 11:56:03 AM »
for anyone interested, here is an interesting debate between Stephen Meyer, philosopher of science and author of "Darwin's Doubt", and Charles Marshall a paleobiologist:

http://www.premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={EC4DB82F-6C74-4C34-B9A6-C3821967CEEA}

It focuses mostly on the Cambrian explosion, which Darwin said was "at present inexplicable... and may be truely urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained" in The Origin of Species.

Offline Bot Blogger

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #41 on: December 19, 2013, 07:01:45 PM »
for anyone interested, here is an interesting debate between Stephen Meyer, philosopher of science and author of "Darwin's Doubt", and Charles Marshall a paleobiologist:

http://www.premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={EC4DB82F-6C74-4C34-B9A6-C3821967CEEA}

It focuses mostly on the Cambrian explosion, which Darwin said was "at present inexplicable... and may be truely urged as a valid argument against the views here entertained" in The Origin of Species.

It's not even a debate. They are dabbing one another on the nose with love taps. Stephen is having a bro-mantic conversation with his friend Charles. It's actually quite charming, their mutual respect. I like it.  :emthup:  :laugh:

So God dropped some life on the planet 4 BILLION years ago and then, three and a half BILLION years later (500 Million years ago) during the Cambrian period, God dropped the garden of Eden on earth. Then God took to sprinkling life forms on earth over the next few hundreds of millions of years culminating in humans being plunked onto the planet. Is that your story? Is That AGs story? Do we trust scientists to use carbon dating or whatever meager method they have to judge the passage of millions and billions of years? Or is that out the window? Also, please feel free to point out the places on the timeline where all the various events coincide with biblical stories, if you don't mind.   :icon_mrgreen:









Science is going to be the means by which this is resolved.
Bottom line is, neither you, AG or me are going to come up with an answer to the 'mystery' of the Cambrian explosion.
But thankyou for bringing it into the conversation. I love mystery.  :icon_sunny:
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 07:23:36 PM by Bot Blogger »

Offline Bot Blogger

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2013, 07:34:01 PM »
It seems research into our origins is advancing at a rapid rate. More parts of the picture are coming together and new 'mysteries' are being discovered: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/science/toe-fossil-provides-complete-neanderthal-genome.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0




Scientists have extracted the entire genome of a 130,000-year-old Neanderthal from a single toe bone in a Siberian cave, an accomplishment that far outstrips any previous work on Neanderthal genes.

The accuracy of the new genome is of similar quality to what scientists would achieve if they were sequencing the DNA of a living person.

“It’s an amazing technical accomplishment,” said Sarah A. Tishkoff, an expert on human evolution at the University of Pennsylvania, who was not involved in the research. “Twenty years ago, I would have thought this would never be possible.”

The new Neanderthal genome, which is described in the current issue of Nature, is part of an extraordinary flurry of advances in studying ancient human DNA. Earlier this month, for example, scientists reconstructed a small segment of genes from a 400,000-year-old fossil in Spain, setting a record for the oldest human DNA ever found.

Using improved methods, the scientists were able to reconstruct the genome from another trove of DNA from an 80,000-year-old finger bone retrieved by a team of Russian explorers from a cave called Denisova.

Much to their surprise, the genome belonged to a separate lineage of humans that had not been known from the fossil record before. The scientists called these mysterious people the Denisovans.

By comparing the rough drafts of the Denisovan and Neanderthal genomes to modern human DNA, Dr. Paabo and his colleagues found clues to how we’re all related. Modern humans, Neanderthals and Denisovans all descended from a common ancestor that lived several hundred thousand years ago. The ancestors of modern humans then branched away on their own lineage. It wasn’t until later that Neanderthals and Denisovans split apart from each other.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 07:38:00 PM by Bot Blogger »

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2013, 08:37:26 PM »
"Extinct Hominids" Published in 2000 first proposed that our progression was not linnear through 4 recognised stages from homo habilis to homo sapiens. While their classifications of new distinct australopith hominid species was not convincing to me, genetics is now showing that there definitely were more unrecognised sub-branches that went extinct in the family tree and not just in africa prior to 3 million years. Im waiting to hear that homo erectus was not the ancestor of all humans as generally accepted, but only some south east asians.
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Offline Ashvin

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Re: 7 Reasons Why It's Easier for Humans to Believe in God Than Evolution
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2013, 04:55:04 AM »
It's not even a debate. They are dabbing one another on the nose with love taps. Stephen is having a bro-mantic conversation with his friend Charles. It's actually quite charming, their mutual respect. I like it.  :emthup:  :laugh:

Yep, that's what I like about real academic discussions/debates. None of those 2 min soundbites of people just shouting at each other back and forth. Both of these guys had carefully read the others' books/papers before engaging their arguments. It also shows how ID advocates are not at all what they are portrayed to be by MSM - they are highly informed, objective and rigorous in their analysis of the science.

Charles Marshall started to make the standard argument "ID advocates aren't doing science, they just want to spread their religion in the schools", but I think he backed off that towards the end as he realized how informed and objective Stephen Meyer really was.

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So God dropped some life on the planet 4 BILLION years ago and then, three and a half BILLION years later (500 Million years ago) during the Cambrian period, God dropped the garden of Eden on earth. Then God took to sprinkling life forms on earth over the next few hundreds of millions of years culminating in humans being plunked onto the planet. Is that your story? Is That AGs story?

That could be a working hypothesis to explain the scientific data, yes. (but the science here only gets us to an "Intelligent Designer", not necessarily the God of the Bible)

Quote
Do we trust scientists to use carbon dating or whatever meager method they have to judge the passage of millions and billions of years? Or is that out the window? Also, please feel free to point out the places on the timeline where all the various events coincide with biblical stories, if you don't mind.   :icon_mrgreen:

Excluding Genesis 1 creation account, all of the Biblical stories coincide with times after the appearance of modern humans...

Quote
Science is going to be the means by which this is resolved.
Bottom line is, neither you, AG or me are going to come up with an answer to the 'mystery' of the Cambrian explosion.
But thankyou for bringing it into the conversation. I love mystery.  :icon_sunny:

Why not? You just came up with a plausible scientific answer above.  :emthup:

 

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