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Offline g

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Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« on: November 20, 2012, 12:36:19 PM »
LONDON (AP) — The Church of England's governing body on Tuesday narrowly blocked a move to permit women to serve as bishops, leaving the church facing more years of contentious debate.

Following a daylong debate, opponents mustered enough support to deny the necessary two-thirds majority among lay members of the General Synod, with backers falling six votes short of passage.

Many speakers expressed regret that they were unable to agree on a way forward.

"Whatever the outcome, there is no victory in the coming days," said Rev. Angus MacLeay, summing up for the opposition. "It is a train crash."

The defeat was a setback for Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who retires at the end of December, and his successor, Bishop Justin Welby. Both had strongly endorsed a proposed compromise that they had hoped would end decades of debate on the issue in the church which has around 80 million members worldwide.

Rev. Rachel Weir, leader of Women and the Church, said the group was "absolutely devastated."

             
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              http://news.yahoo.com/church-england-says-no-female-bishops-195322866.html
« Last Edit: November 20, 2012, 12:39:34 PM by Golden Oxen »

Offline Surly1

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2012, 01:49:51 PM »
And meanwhile, attendance of mainline churches continues to decline in the west. And they will wonder why, and what to do.
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Offline Ashvin

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 02:22:20 PM »
GO,

This is a difficult cultural issue. At the same time, it's hard to deny that scripture is clear on this matter, namely Paul. So what's the reason for Paul saying that women should not teach or hold authority over men in the Church setting? I don't know exactly, but I do know that we must trust in God and his word, communicated through his prophets/apostles. We can't pick and choose what parts to uphold for the sake of political correctness of equal employment opportunities in churches, and certainly not for the sake of increasing church attendance. It's not a business or a culturally adaptable organization - it's a house of worship and devotion to Christ, nothing less.

Offline Surly1

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 03:12:07 PM »
And this why I no longer engage with Ashvin. It's dogma uber alles, 24-7, 365. Dogma all that matters.

What will the Christian faith look like in 2040, when churches no longer exist?

Preach me some Leviticus next, will ya?

Pah!
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Offline roamer

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2012, 07:07:03 PM »
Looks like the world lost one more intelligent critical thinker to fundamentalism:(  Normally this would not disturb me, it does in Ashvins case for two reasons.  One is he is much smarter than me and could out argue my sorry ass any day, even if I was right, secondly it is our species inability to intelligently carry forward those elements of our inherited mythology which serve us, and leave behind those that do not, for they are at the root of so many issues the world faces today.  The world needs Ashvin to use his own GOD given smarts and figure out where HE falls on issues such as whether women are equal in men in spiritual ministering capacity, not what his fundemental beliefs tell him.

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2012, 07:46:21 PM »
They should just rewrite the whole bible. I especially hate the verse that says the laws of men are follishness to the Lord. We need a progressive bible for a progressive world almost uninhabitable for the future, we know best. The bible verses predicting christianity lite being popular in the end of the fall of man should be rewritten too, too smug.
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Offline roamer

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2012, 08:18:04 PM »
Uncle Bob, I'm curious how many other religious  scriptures  have you read? How many have you read from a neutral perspective where you just observed the general themes they described? Still convinced though you have found the one and only way though.

From your tone it sounds like you are trying to address the lost and backwards progressive youth who from your vantage point appear hopelessly lost without the guiding hand of the bible and the holy spirit. While it may be true that many biblical revelations can be used to describe the general patterns of our current fall, it does not at all imply christianity has the market corned on prophesy and societal decay dynamics.  Plenty of other works societies and their infallible religions have produced on the subject, some are pretty good too (taoism, and buddhism describe these dynamics from a nuetral more explanative vantage point). 

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2012, 08:55:12 PM »
Roamer,

You clearly missed my battle with Ashvin in the picturing christ thread.
I have done far morte than READ a number of different christian sects and cults, I go along and try them until Im sure I cant believe their interpretation.

I debated ashvin on my belief system that interprets the bible as consistent with hinduism and bhuddism. And I have not only read these but tried the practice including  3 day silent vegetarian meditation retreats and visiting speaking swamis, and being quite impressed.

Do not get me wrong, I do not believe women should waste their brains just cooking and cleaning. In churches nuns have had high positions and I dont see why a nun should not hold any high position. I do see this high tech hell we have created having many things ass-about and calling it progress. But Im interested in what you think other religions ancient texts also predict on the end of our age in this subject.
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Offline Ashvin

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 12:50:39 AM »
Looks like the world lost one more intelligent critical thinker to fundamentalism:(  Normally this would not disturb me, it does in Ashvins case for two reasons.  One is he is much smarter than me and could out argue my sorry ass any day, even if I was right, secondly it is our species inability to intelligently carry forward those elements of our inherited mythology which serve us, and leave behind those that do not, for they are at the root of so many issues the world faces today.  The world needs Ashvin to use his own GOD given smarts and figure out where HE falls on issues such as whether women are equal in men in spiritual ministering capacity, not what his fundemental beliefs tell him.

What, you think I suddenly decided to abandon my brain and be a "fundamentalist"? Two years ago, I was exactly like Surly... and just about everyone else I know. I thought Jesus was probably a smart guy, with smooth words of wisdom, but I wouldn't dare to take the Bible literally or seriously. Especially since I had already alienated myself with all of my doomer theories about the economy and the environment. What could possibly alienate me anymore from my family and friends? Becoming an evangelical Christian, that's what.

But I don't care what "inherited mythology serves us", or what the progressive Christians think after reading Tolkien and Lewis. I want to know the truth. When I read the Bible, and reflect on Christ and his death/resurrection and all of the traditional theology that came before and after him, I feel the truth coursing through my veins... it's really that simple. When I reflect on new age spirituality and neo-paganism and revived romanticism and the emergent church, I feel manipulation and deceit and so-called Christians trying to conform to a broken world, doing everything they can to ignore the word of God, and it makes me ill.   

Someone screams "dogma" when they disagree with the clear meaning of scripture, and it makes my rational mind cringe. Yes,
the world has lost one more intelligent thinker, because the faithful in Christ are not of this world, just as Christ was not of this world.

Quote from: 1John2
15Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions—is not from the Father but is from the world. 17And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

Quote from: John17
14I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.a 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Offline RE

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2012, 01:29:55 AM »
What, you think I suddenly decided to abandon my brain and be a "fundamentalist"? Two years ago, I was exactly like Surly... and just about everyone else I know. I thought Jesus was probably a smart guy, with smooth words of wisdom, but I wouldn't dare to take the Bible literally or seriously. Especially since I had already alienated myself with all of my doomer theories about the economy and the environment. What could possibly alienate me anymore from my family and friends? Becoming an evangelical Christian, that's what.

Just food for thought, but what if subconsciously what you really WANT is to alienate yourself from everyone?  You don't make any effort at ALL to come to agreement with anyone here, that is for sure.  You have staked out a dogmatic position that MOST people, even the CHRISTIANS here find insupportable in real terms.  You get HAMMERRED on by just about everyone, then HAMMER back at them that they don''t REALLY grasp the Meaning of the Gospel and Words of Jesus.

The field of Apologetics is SOOOO Deep, you can engage your legal brain in 1500 years of this stuff, and Google to Kingdom Come arguments from "Experts" that will support your take on the Bible.

As I see it Watson, you chose this path in order to STOP thinking about the rest of the problems we face by miring yourself in such existential questions.  I used to really ENJOY reading your analysis, now you just drone on and on about Jesus, and I am pretty much alienated from you as a result.    I keep trying to get you out of this box, with close to ZERO success, and I am sure the result is much the same inside your biological family as it is amongst the family of Doomers her on the Diner.

There IS a BALANCE to be found here Watson, you don't HAVE to be ALL FUNDY, ALL THE TIME.  You don't HAVE to alienate everybody.  You could make some attempt at being a MENSCH.

RE
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2012, 02:25:26 AM »
It is the dogmatist's habit of mind to INSIST that he, and he alone, has a corner on the truth, and if the scales will but fall from your eyes, you too will see the beauty and wisdom, etc.

Dogmatism always and ever leads to absolutism, and thus to madness.

"Kill them all, God will recognize his own."

-Arnald-Amalric, 1208 (when asked by the Crusaders what to do with the citizens of Beziers who were a mixture of Catholics and Cathars.)
 This was during the so called Albigensian Crusade, in which the Pope put down heresy, and as a happy byproduct brought forth he Dominicans and the Inquisition.

This is the end game of dogmatism. You don't have to believe me- but the record is pretty clear.
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2012, 04:17:17 AM »
Seems like this time Ashvin is the one being burned at the stake lol. He has offered his belief the same one that the majority of the eligible voters on the issue adopted. He has not forced it down anyones neck. Hes made good progress bringing a biblical perspective to questions other than the irrelevant edge of the unknown.

RE previously stated that the new Archbishop is out and out illuminati, I said then it was no coincidence that they were trying to introduce progressive measures including female clergy. So the illuminati oil exec introducing female bishops is the force for good, and the fundamentalists sticking to the bible is wrong?

Maybe all the old values are a joke and the only seroius sin is grand usury, and 7 billion people are going down because of the sins of 7 odd families or companies who own it all. Or just maybe that usury is just one serious sin and all the others engaged in by this enlightened society are not innocent and harmless, and the bible and other ancient texts saying that the sheep/zombies happy as pigs in shit are lost and slated for extermination en masse for turning away from all that old hat.

I dont know for sure, I see homosexuality as harmless for a start, but lets not shoot the messenger.


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Offline g

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2012, 04:34:49 AM »
Quote
Seems like this time Ashvin is the one being burned at the stake lol. He has offered his belief the same one that the majority of the eligible voters on the issue adopted. He has not forced it down anyones neck. Hes made good progress bringing a biblical perspective to questions other than the irrelevant edge of the unknown.

It has become sport at the Diner. A real shame.

Ashvin remains above the fray and continues to grace us with his thoughts, am I glad of that.

Glad to see you coming to appreciate Ashvin more Unc, he is a treasured poster, and true font of knowledge.

Offline RE

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2012, 04:38:14 AM »
Seems like this time Ashvin is the one being burned at the stake lol. He has offered his belief the same one that the majority of the eligible voters on the issue adopted. He has not forced it down anyones neck. Hes made good progress bringing a biblical perspective to questions other than the irrelevant edge of the unknown.

RE previously stated that the new Archbishop is out and out illuminati, I said then it was no coincidence that they were trying to introduce progressive measures including female clergy. So the illuminati oil exec introducing female bishops is the force for good, and the fundamentalists sticking to the bible is wrong?

Maybe all the old values are a joke and the only seroius sin is grand usury, and 7 billion people are going down because of the sins of 7 odd families or companies who own it all. Or just maybe that usury is just one serious sin and all the others engaged in by this enlightened society are not innocent and harmless, and the bible and other ancient texts saying that the sheep/zombies happy as pigs in shit are lost and slated for extermination en masse for turning away from all that old hat.

I dont know for sure, I see homosexuality as harmless for a start, but lets not shoot the messenger.

What?  Do you have a position here? Somewhere? On Something?

RE
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Offline RE

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Re: Church of England says No to Female Bishops
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2012, 04:45:00 AM »

It has become sport at the Diner. A real shame.


No way.  Watson makes himself a Target, not a shame at all.  It is purposeful.  It is rather tragic IMHO.

Your obsequiious posts are even MORE tragic. JMHO.

RE
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