AuthorTopic: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial  (Read 1355 times)

Offline Eddie

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Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« on: July 06, 2020, 06:09:42 AM »
I expect to see some of these get built. Probably the biggest potential energy game changer of all.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oB1IrzDDI9g&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/oB1IrzDDI9g&fs=1</a>
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline JRM

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2020, 07:33:01 AM »
I expect to see some of these get built. Probably the biggest potential energy game changer of all.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oB1IrzDDI9g&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/oB1IrzDDI9g&fs=1</a>

I didn't watch the video.  I may later, perhaps. But I've participated in and witnessed a fair amount of conversation about "new generation" nuclear energy production proposals.

The conversations I have participated in were populated with folks who have expert or near expert knowledge about the potentials for various kinds of nuclear energy production.  I asked them how long it would take to get from today's starting position to commercially viable production having begun, and they said it would take at least a decade for some kinds of plants and a couple of decades or more for others.

It is my view that, therefore, even were they as safe as their boosters say they are, and even if dealing with waste streams were not a problem, these plants won't be of much or any help addressing our climate crisis -- which is what they are being sold on.

We need dramatic, immediate greenhouse gas reductions, not reductions in ten or twenty years. And my years long study of these questions has convinced me that intensive voluntary energy descent -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_descent -- to be the principal source of greenhouse gas reductions, since replacing existing net energy use with clean and safe renewables won't be possible in the necessary time frame to avert certain worst case climate scenarios.

Even ten more years of anything near business as usual emissions is not acceptable. And so, if I am correct on what I've said so far, we have no choice other than a massive amount of deindustrialization of our economies if we are to address the climate crisis.  This would, of course, result in a shrinking rather than a growing economy. So we should be looking in the direction of what the de-growth folks know about how to shrink a economy while attending to human needs.

Degrowth articles: https://www.resilience.org/?type=Filter+by&s=degrowth

All other proposed pathways are either overtly dishonest or are not grounded in the hard facts.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 07:39:16 AM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Eddie

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2020, 09:15:37 AM »
I'm fine with voluntary degrowth. And I've probably read as many articles about it as you have, since I was once involved with the Transition movement......back when there was one here to be part of....

It is my considered opinion that voluntary degrowth is DOA.

I expect you're going to do about as well with degrowth as you've done with growing your own food.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline JRM

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2020, 09:56:52 AM »
I'm fine with voluntary degrowth. And I've probably read as many articles about it as you have, since I was once involved with the Transition movement......back when there was one here to be part of....

It is my considered opinion that voluntary degrowth is DOA.

I expect you're going to do about as well with degrowth as you've done with growing your own food.

Your last paragraph there paints a picture in which de-growth is about me, and not about the millions of people, part of a growing global movement, who are embracing de-growth as a necessary response to our world situation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degrowth

If we de-growthers fail, we should at least try and fail beautifully and gloriously, rather than to assume a passive spectator role in a dying civilization.

But it is too soon to know that we will fail.  People said the same thing about abolishing chattel slavery, about same sex marriage, about women getting the vote, about LGBT people winning the rights recently won in the US Supreme Court, etc.  All of that took effort, and folks don't make an effort if they believe your story line about progress.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2020, 10:38:10 AM »
I tend to agree with Eddie here, a Voluntary Degrowth Contraction or Voluntary Power Down is not going to happen in any significant fashion.  People will keep consuming until they either run out of money or there is no money that works or there is nothing left to buy.  At which point it all crashes.

Civilizations don't die voluntarily or peacefully or beautifully. They go down in flames.


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Offline JRM

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2020, 11:10:25 AM »
Whatever.

The space of conversation is obviously closed here.

It's pretty much always been the same here, that way. I guess I come back for the same reason Eddie does, because this watering hole serves up skanky water, but there are not many places serving in this desert.

Mostly what we get around here is "We're Fucked, and there ain't nothing we can do about it."

What a waste of my time.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 11:15:02 AM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2020, 11:23:11 AM »
Well, anyway, I'm out of here until there are others who think what we do and say and etc. matters, and that it REALLY matters, in that we're not powerless and useless flotsam and jetsam at the end of time.

Maybe if I see some folks taking up my orientation -- that what we do matters, I'll rejoin the so-called conversation. But not before.  And I don't mean "It matters because it helps one to feel good about oneself" -- which is just more narcissistic bullshit in a narcissistic "civilization".  I want to be around folks who actually fucking give a damn and are willing to be open-minded and vulnerable when it comes to discussing these horrible conditions.

Since that's not been happening in this watering hole, I'm likely never to come round here no more.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1</a>

My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2020, 11:29:35 AM »
I expect to see some of these get built. Probably the biggest potential energy game changer of all.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oB1IrzDDI9g&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/oB1IrzDDI9g&fs=1</a>
Through a series of coincidences I have built additions and bunkies for the retired chief of metallurgy and the head of maintenance engineering for OPG's nukes. Both retired but active consultants. Through chats with them molten salt is the future for nukes. Here is the canadian equivalent  https://www.terrestrialenergy.com/technology/
From the video their market will be developing world. My understanding is canada europe and Asia are much further ahead with the regulatory hurdles then the US. The current us nuke fleet seem to be tied too closely to bomb making to ever get a second chance. That bad blood seems to poison most environmentalists towards a newer generation of plants. Molten salt has almost none of the drawbacks but in today's shouting world and low science aptitude they are probably a non starter in the US.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2020, 11:31:04 AM »
Well, anyway, I'm out of here until there are others who think what we do and say and etc. matters, and that it REALLY matters, in that we're not powerless and useless flotsam and jetsam at the end of time.

Maybe if I see some folks taking up my orientation -- that what we do matters, I'll rejoin the so-called conversation. But not before.  And I don't mean "It matters because it helps one to feel good about oneself" -- which is just more narcissistic bullshit in a narcissistic "civilization".  I want to be around folks who actually fucking give a damn and are willing to be open-minded and vulnerable when it comes to discussing these horrible conditions.

Since that's not been happening in this watering hole, I'm likely never to come round here no more.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1</a>
do you see yourself as an open minded individual?
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Surly1

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2020, 11:48:16 AM »

We need dramatic, immediate greenhouse gas reductions, not reductions in ten or twenty years. And my years long study of these questions has convinced me that intensive voluntary energy descent -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_descent -- to be the principal source of greenhouse gas reductions, since replacing existing net energy use with clean and safe renewables won't be possible in the necessary time frame to avert certain worst case climate scenarios.

I have not viewed the video yet either, but recall being very encouraged by some scuttlebutt I came across in re thorium reactors some years ago. they were the subject of some outrageously hopeful claims. I look forward to seeing what has happened in the intervening years, and how the tech is being marketed.

I mat be mistaken, but I thought that no matter what we do at this point, catastrophic climate change is baked into the cake. Since “sunny-day flooding” already is afflicting coastal cities from Miami to Norfolk (where I live), some project that sea levels will rise 3 to 4 feet by century’s end. Elsewhere, knarf has posted an article, "Why 2020 to 2050 Will Be ‘the Most Transformative Decades in Human History’" detailing how climate change will spur more migration than at any other point in human history. Imagine what happens when Himalayan glaciers quite feeding Asian rivers. Imagine what happens when separatist insurgents in Colorado decide that California isn't getting any more of their water. Conflict is indeed inevitable.

I hate to be endlessly pessimistic about this, but nobody has changed human nature. Elsewhere I find myself arguing with libertarian thumbfucks who insist that mask requirements are "fascism™." Humans have an endless capacity for self-justification. And as John Kenneth Galbraith once said, "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

From where I sit, people don't want to chan ge, don't want to be told they HAVE to do anything, and a sizable minority don't think they owe anyone else any consideration. Between Margaret thatcher (“There is no such thing as society: there are individual men and women, and there are families.”) and Ayn Rand, Satan's work on planet Earth is done. The ground is tilled.

RE is fond of posting the meme, "I see dead people." Sorry, but I do. I will be dead when this occurs, but my daughter and her family may well not be.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 11:52:29 AM by Surly1 »
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Offline RE

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2020, 12:45:12 PM »
Whatever.

The space of conversation is obviously closed here.

It's pretty much always been the same here, that way. I guess I come back for the same reason Eddie does, because this watering hole serves up skanky water, but there are not many places serving in this desert.

Mostly what we get around here is "We're Fucked, and there ain't nothing we can do about it."

What a waste of my time.

It DOES matter what you say, do and write.  That's why the motto of the Diner is "Save as Many as You Can".  That's why I have spent more than a decade examining Collapse issues.

You are in Denial however if you think very many can be saved or that Industrial Civilization will end Peacefully or Voluntarily.  Collapse just doesn't work that way.  If you get more realistic about what can be done, you will enjoy the Dinerr much more.

Meanwhile, have a nice Walkabout.

RE
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Offline Cam

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2020, 01:06:20 PM »
Well, anyway, I'm out of here until there are others who think what we do and say and etc. matters, and that it REALLY matters, in that we're not powerless and useless flotsam and jetsam at the end of time.

Maybe if I see some folks taking up my orientation -- that what we do matters, I'll rejoin the so-called conversation. But not before.  And I don't mean "It matters because it helps one to feel good about oneself" -- which is just more narcissistic bullshit in a narcissistic "civilization".  I want to be around folks who actually fucking give a damn and are willing to be open-minded and vulnerable when it comes to discussing these horrible conditions.

Since that's not been happening in this watering hole, I'm likely never to come round here no more.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1</a>

I'm not sure if you've read Active Hope by Joanna Macy or not. I'm assuming you have because a lot of the perspectives you have sound similar to hers. I think before reading that book I was in a rut after learning the situation we've gotten ourselves into as a species. Sad, angry, and all the rest. There's no hope I thought. What she changed for me is the definition of hope. It's not sitting around thinking, "Gee, I hope we all do something about this". I don't have the book anymore as I did a big clear out recently but in her words, hope is something you do, not something you have. I think we diners do a pretty good job of that. Build the new world one garden at time. One solar installation at a time. One bike truck at a time. One new friend at a time. It's all we can do in my view, and it is all we need to do. If this all goes to hell anyways, well shit that'll suck. But I don't think it's gonna be that simple. Sure things are going to get more difficult and scary as time goes on, but I think we're going to see the other side of things too. People will be forced to cooperate in ways they haven't had to for a long time. Community gardens will be seen more as a necessity than a fun hobby. Bikes will be seen not only as fun but a way to get from point A to point B. Renewables like solar and wind will continue to grow albeit maybe only on a local scale. I think as Diners we get to see these changes coming well before they're here for the most part, and as a result we can get GOOD at these things! I think prepping for collapse, or whatever we might want to call it, is just another name for creating this new world that we're all entering into. Even if we do these actions thinking mostly about ourselves and our families, I think in doing that we are helping to plant the seeds of whatever comes after this. We're going to need to be more cooperative, more resilient, more loving, more of a lot of things if we're going to make it through this. And even if we don't make it through, knowing your neighbours and gardening and loving those around you will make your life fulfilling.

This is unrelated to thorium I apologize but I wanted to respond to JRM  8)
As this world disintegrates, do what you can to help build what comes next.

Offline JRM

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2020, 01:30:48 PM »
Well, anyway, I'm out of here until there are others who think what we do and say and etc. matters, and that it REALLY matters, in that we're not powerless and useless flotsam and jetsam at the end of time.

Maybe if I see some folks taking up my orientation -- that what we do matters, I'll rejoin the so-called conversation. But not before.  And I don't mean "It matters because it helps one to feel good about oneself" -- which is just more narcissistic bullshit in a narcissistic "civilization".  I want to be around folks who actually fucking give a damn and are willing to be open-minded and vulnerable when it comes to discussing these horrible conditions.

Since that's not been happening in this watering hole, I'm likely never to come round here no more.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1</a>

I'm not sure if you've read Active Hope by Joanna Macy or not. I'm assuming you have because a lot of the perspectives you have sound similar to hers. I think before reading that book I was in a rut after learning the situation we've gotten ourselves into as a species. Sad, angry, and all the rest. There's no hope I thought. What she changed for me is the definition of hope. It's not sitting around thinking, "Gee, I hope we all do something about this". I don't have the book anymore as I did a big clear out recently but in her words, hope is something you do, not something you have. I think we diners do a pretty good job of that. Build the new world one garden at time. One solar installation at a time. One bike truck at a time. One new friend at a time. It's all we can do in my view, and it is all we need to do. If this all goes to hell anyways, well shit that'll suck. But I don't think it's gonna be that simple. Sure things are going to get more difficult and scary as time goes on, but I think we're going to see the other side of things too. People will be forced to cooperate in ways they haven't had to for a long time. Community gardens will be seen more as a necessity than a fun hobby. Bikes will be seen not only as fun but a way to get from point A to point B. Renewables like solar and wind will continue to grow albeit maybe only on a local scale. I think as Diners we get to see these changes coming well before they're here for the most part, and as a result we can get GOOD at these things! I think prepping for collapse, or whatever we might want to call it, is just another name for creating this new world that we're all entering into. Even if we do these actions thinking mostly about ourselves and our families, I think in doing that we are helping to plant the seeds of whatever comes after this. We're going to need to be more cooperative, more resilient, more loving, more of a lot of things if we're going to make it through this. And even if we don't make it through, knowing your neighbours and gardening and loving those around you will make your life fulfilling.

This is unrelated to thorium I apologize but I wanted to respond to JRM  8)
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Surly1

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2020, 01:33:17 PM »
Well, anyway, I'm out of here until there are others who think what we do and say and etc. matters, and that it REALLY matters, in that we're not powerless and useless flotsam and jetsam at the end of time.

Maybe if I see some folks taking up my orientation -- that what we do matters, I'll rejoin the so-called conversation. But not before.  And I don't mean "It matters because it helps one to feel good about oneself" -- which is just more narcissistic bullshit in a narcissistic "civilization".  I want to be around folks who actually fucking give a damn and are willing to be open-minded and vulnerable when it comes to discussing these horrible conditions.

Since that's not been happening in this watering hole, I'm likely never to come round here no more.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/h0JvF9vpqx8&fs=1</a>

I'm not sure if you've read Active Hope by Joanna Macy or not. I'm assuming you have because a lot of the perspectives you have sound similar to hers. I think before reading that book I was in a rut after learning the situation we've gotten ourselves into as a species. Sad, angry, and all the rest. There's no hope I thought. What she changed for me is the definition of hope. It's not sitting around thinking, "Gee, I hope we all do something about this". I don't have the book anymore as I did a big clear out recently but in her words, hope is something you do, not something you have. I think we diners do a pretty good job of that. Build the new world one garden at time. One solar installation at a time. One bike truck at a time. One new friend at a time. It's all we can do in my view, and it is all we need to do. If this all goes to hell anyways, well shit that'll suck. But I don't think it's gonna be that simple. Sure things are going to get more difficult and scary as time goes on, but I think we're going to see the other side of things too. People will be forced to cooperate in ways they haven't had to for a long time. Community gardens will be seen more as a necessity than a fun hobby. Bikes will be seen not only as fun but a way to get from point A to point B. Renewables like solar and wind will continue to grow albeit maybe only on a local scale. I think as Diners we get to see these changes coming well before they're here for the most part, and as a result we can get GOOD at these things! I think prepping for collapse, or whatever we might want to call it, is just another name for creating this new world that we're all entering into. Even if we do these actions thinking mostly about ourselves and our families, I think in doing that we are helping to plant the seeds of whatever comes after this. We're going to need to be more cooperative, more resilient, more loving, more of a lot of things if we're going to make it through this. And even if we don't make it through, knowing your neighbours and gardening and loving those around you will make your life fulfilling.

This is unrelated to thorium I apologize but I wanted to respond to JRM  8)

 :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:

Cam gets it.

Quote
Hope is something you do, not something you have. I think we diners do a pretty good job of that. Build the new world one garden at time. One solar installation at a time. One bike truck at a time. One new friend at a time. It's all we can do in my view, and it is all we need to do

My nominee for new quote of the decade.
"...reprehensible lying communist..."

Offline JRM

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Re: Thor-Con Molten Salt Reactor Infomercial
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2020, 01:37:56 PM »
Yes, CAM, I have Joanna Macy's Active Hope in my personal library, and have read some of it. I should read more of it!

I've belonged to the Active Hope camp for a long time -- unlike any of the regulars (apart from yourself) that inhabit this space routinely.

I didn't expect I'd respond to any of the posts here, but yours is worthy of responding to.  RE's last post is particularly not worthy of responding to, since he pretends to a level of certainty on these matters which he doesn't have -- any more than any of us have it.

I'm really done with this place for as long as it is a cesspool of defeatism, dommerism and despair without caring about or nurturing "hope".

This is NOT a kind place, generally. It is a brutal and ugly place on the web, more often than not -- because it is here that we are discouraged from Active Hope.

Those who choose ultimate despair, defeatism and hopelessness can kiss my lily white ass.

Thanks, CAM!

And the rest of you can kiss my ass. 

Bye-bye.  Over and out.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

 

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