AuthorTopic: Thoughts on Re-opening schools  (Read 831 times)

Offline Surly1

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Thoughts on Re-opening schools
« on: July 11, 2020, 06:15:59 AM »
I found this on a friend's Facebook page. It is one of the most thoughtful discussions of the ins and outs of this issue from a parent's perspective.
Yeah, Facebook, home of the Mau Mau nation.

PARENTS WITH SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN:
Wow - this  artical I just read (written by someone in Fairfax County, Va) has me rethinking a number of my thoughts on school restarting in the fall. It’s well worth the time to read if you dare to challenge your thinking, as CCPS has same options on the discussion board. If you have school aged children, please read:

From Joe Morice, daughters in 8th & 10th grade in the Centreville Pyramid:
To our fellow FCPS families, this is it gang, 5 days until the 2 days in school vs. 100% virtual decision. Let’s talk it out, in my traditional mammoth TL/DR form.

Like all of you, I’ve seen my feed become a flood of anxiety and faux expertise. You’ll get no presumption of expertise here. This is how I am looking at and considering this issue and the positions people have taken in my feed and in the hundred or so FCPS discussion groups that have popped up. The lead comments in quotes are taken directly from my feed and those boards. Sometimes I try to rationalize them. Sometimes I’m just punching back at the void.

Full disclosure, we initially chose the 2 days option and are now having serious reservations. As I consider the positions and arguments I see in my feed, these are where my mind goes. Of note, when I started working on this piece at 12:19 PM today the COVID death tally in the United States stood at 133,420.

“My kids want to go back to school.”

I challenge that position. I believe what the kids desire is more abstract. I believe what they want is a return to normalcy. They want their idea of yesterday. And yesterday isn’t on the menu.

“I want my child in school so they can socialize.”

This was the principle reason for our 2 days decision. As I think more on it though, what do we think ‘social’ will look like? There aren’t going to be any lunch table groups, any lockers, any recess games, any study halls, any sitting next to friends, any talking to people in the hallway, any dances. All of that is off the menu. So, when we say that we want the kids to benefit from the social experience, what are we deluding ourselves into thinking in-building socialization will actually look like in the Fall?

“My kid is going to be left behind.”

Left behind who? The entire country is grappling with the same issue, leaving all children in the same quagmire. Who exactly would they be behind? I believe the rhetorical answer to that is “They’ll be behind where they should be,” to which I’ll counter that “where they should be” is a fictional goal post that we as a society have taken as gospel because it maps to standardized tests which are used to grade schools and counties as they chase funding.

“Classrooms are safe.”

At the current distancing guidelines from FCPS middle and high schools would have no more than 12 people (teachers + students) in a classroom (I acknowledge this number may change as FCPS considers the Commonwealth’s 3 ft with a mask vs. 6 ft position, noting that FCPS is all mask regardless of the distance). For the purpose of this discussion we’ll say classes run 45 minutes.

I posed the following question to 40 people today, representing professional and management roles in corporations, government agencies, and military commands: “Would your company or command have a 12 person, 45 minute meeting in a conference room?”
100% of them said no, they would not. These are some of their answers:

“No. Until further notice we are on Zoom.”
“(Our company) doesn’t allow us in (company space).”
“Oh hell no.”
“No absolutely not.”
“Is there a percentage lower than zero?”
“Something of that size would be virtual.”

We do not even consider putting our office employees into the same situation we are contemplating putting our children into. And let’s drive this point home: there are instances here when commanding officers will not put soldiers, ACTUAL SOLDIERS, into the kind of indoor environment we’re contemplating for our children. For me this is as close to a ‘kill shot’ argument as there is in this entire debate. How do we work from home because buildings with recycled air are not safe, because we don’t trust other people to not spread the virus, and then with the same breath send our children into buildings?

“Children only die .0016 of the time.”

First, conceding we’re an increasingly morally bankrupt society, but when did we start talking about children’s lives, or anyone’s lives, like this? This how the villain in movies talks about mortality, usually 10-15 minutes before the good guy kills him.

If you’re in this camp, and I acknowledge that many, many people are, I’m asking you to consider that number from a slightly different angle.
FCPS has 189,000 children. .0016 of that is 302. 302 dead children are the Calvary Hill you’re erecting your argument on. So, let’s agree to do this: stop presenting this as a data point. If this is your argument, I challenge you to have courage equal to your conviction. Go ahead, plant a flag on the internet and say, “Only 302 children will die.” No one will. That’s the kind action on social media that gets you fired from your job. And I trust our social media enclave isn’t so careless and irresponsible with life that it would even, for even a millisecond, enter any of your minds to make such an argument.

Considered another way: You’re presented with a bag with 189,000 $1 bills. You’re told that in the bag are 302 random bills, they look and feel just like all the others, but each one of those bills will kill you. Do you take the money out of the bag?

Same argument, applied to the 12,487 teachers in FCPS (per Wikipedia), using the ‘children’s multiplier’ of .0016 (all of us understanding the adult mortality rate is higher). That’s 20 teachers. That’s the number you’re talking about. It’s very easy to sit behind a keyboard and diminish and dismiss the risk you’re advocating other people assume. Take a breath and think about that.

If you want to advocate for 2 days a week, look, I’m looking for someone to convince me. But please, for the love of God, drop things like this from your argument. Because the people I know who’ve said things like this, I know they’re better people than this. They’re good people under incredible stress who let things slip out as their frustration boils over. So, please do the right thing and move on from this, because one potential outcome is that one day, you’re going to have to stand in front of St. Peter and answer for this, and that’s not going to be conversation you enjoy.

“Hardly any kids get COVID.”

(Deep sigh) Yes, that is statistically true as of this writing. But it is a cherry-picked argument because you’re leaving out an important piece.
One can reasonably argue that, due to the school closures in March, children have had the least EXPOSURE to COVID. In other words, closing schools was the one pandemic mitigation action we took that worked. There can be no discussion of the rate of diagnosis within children without also acknowledging they were among our fastest and most quarantined people. Put another way, you cannot cite the effect without acknowledging the cause.

“The flu kills more people every year.”

(Deep sigh). First of all, no, it doesn’t. Per the CDC, United States flu deaths average 20,000 annually. COVID, when I start writing here today, has killed 133,420 in six months.

And when you mention the flu, do you mean the disease that, if you’re suspected of having it, everyone, literally everyone in the country tells you stay the f- away from other people? You mean the one where parents are pretty sure their kids have it but send them to school anyway because they have a meeting that day, the one that every year causes massive f-ing outbreaks in schools because schools are petri dishes and it causes kids to miss weeks of school and leaves them out of sports and band for a month? That one? Because you’re right - the flu kills people every year. It does, but you’re ignoring the why. It’s because there are people who are a--holes who don’t care about infecting other people. In that regard it’s a perfect comparison to COVID.

“Almost everyone recovers.”

You’re confusing “release from the hospital” and “no longer infected” with “recovered.” I’m fortunate to only know two people who have had COVID. One my age and one my dad’s age. The one my age described it as “absolute hell” and although no longer infected cannot breathe right. The one my dad’s age was in the hospital for 13 weeks, had to have a trach ring put in because she could no longer be on a ventilator, and upon finally getting home and being faced with incalculable time in rehab told my mother, “I wish I had died.”
While I’m making every effort to reach objectivity, on this particular point, you don’t know what the f- you’re talking about.

“If people get sick, they get sick.”

First, you mistyped. What you intended to say was “If OTHER people get sick, they get sick.” And shame on you.
“I’m not going to live my life in fear.”

You already live your life in fear. For your health, your family’s health, your job, your retirement, terrorists, extremists, one political party or the other being in power, the new neighbors, an unexpected home repair, the next sunrise. What you meant to say was, “I’m not prepared to add ANOTHER fear,” and I’ve got news for you: that ship has sailed. It’s too late. There are two kinds of people, and only two: those that admit they’re afraid, and those that are lying to themselves about it.

As to the fear argument, fear is the reason you wait up when your kids stay out late, it’s the reason you tell your kids not to dive in the shallow water, to look both ways before crossing the road. Fear is the respect for the wide world that we teach our children. Except in this instance, for reasons no one has been able to explain to me yet.

“FCPS leadership sucks.”

I will summarize my view of the School Board thusly: if the 12 of you aren’t getting into a room together because it represents a risk, don’t tell me it’s OK for our kids. I understand your arguments, that we need the 2 days option for parents who can’t work from home, kids who don’t have internet or computer access, kids who needs meals from the school system, kids who need extra support to learn, and most tragically for kids who are at greater risk of abuse by being home. All very serious, all very real issues, all heartbreaking. No argument.
But you must first lead by example. Because you’re failing when it comes to optics. All your meetings are online. What our children see is all of you on a Zoom telling them it’s OK for them to be exactly where you aren’t. I understand you’re not PR people, but you really should think about hiring some.

“I talked it over with my kids.”

Let’s put aside for a moment the concept of adults effectively deferring this decision to children, the same children who will continue to stuff things into a full trash can rather than change it out. Yes, those hygienic children.

Listen, my 15 year old daughter wants a sport car, which she’s not getting next year because it would be dangerous to her and to others. Those kinds of decisions are our job. We step in and decide as parents, we don’t let them expose themselves to risks because their still developing and screen addicted brains narrow their understanding of cause and effect.

We as parents and adults serve to make difficult decisions. Sometimes those are in the form of lessons, where we try to steer kids towards the right answer and are willing to let them make a mistake in the hopes of teaching better decision making the next time around. This is not one of those moments. The stakes are too high for that. This is a “the adults are talking” moment. Kids are not mature enough for this moment. That is not an attack on your child. It is a broad statement about all children. It is true of your children and it was true when we were children. We need to be doing that thinking here, and “Johnny wants to see Bobby at school” cannot be the prevailing element in the equation.

“The teachers need to do their job.”

How is it that the same society which abruptly shifted to virtual students only three months ago, and offered glowing endorsements of teachers stating, “we finally understand how difficult your job is,” has now shifted to “screw you, do your job.” There are myriad problems with that position but for the purposes of this piece let’s simply go with, “You’re not looking for a teacher, you’re looking for the babysitter you feel your property tax payment entitles you to.”

“Teachers have a greater chance to being killed by a car than they do of dying from COVID.”

(Eye roll) Per the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), the U.S. see approximately 36,000 auto fatalities a year. Again, there have been 133,420 COVID deaths in the United States through 12:09 July 10, 2020. So no, they do not have a great chance of being killed in a car accident.
And, if you want to take the actual environment into consideration, the odds of a teacher being killed in a car accident in their classroom, you know, the environment we’re actually talking about, that’s right around 0%.

“If the grocery store workers can be onsite what are the teachers afraid of?”

(Deep breath) A grocery store worker, who absolutely risks exposure, has either six feet of space or a plexiglass shield between them and individual adult customers who can grasp their own mortality whose transactions can be completed in moments, in a 40,000 SF space.
A teacher is with 11 ‘customers’ who have not an inkling what mortality is, for 45 minutes, in a 675 SF space, six times a day.
Just stop.

“Teachers are choosing remote because they don’t want to work.”

(Deep breaths) Many teachers are opting to be remote. That is not a vacation. They’re requesting to do their job at a safer site. Just like many, many people who work in buildings with recycled air have done. And likely the building you’re not going into has a newer and better serviced air system than our schools.
Of greater interest to me is the number of teachers choosing the 100% virtual option for their children. The people who spend the most time in the buildings are the same ones electing not to send their children into those buildings. That’s something I pay attention to.
“I wasn’t prepared to be a parent 24/7” and “I just need a break.”
I truly, deeply respect that honesty. Truth be told, both arguments have crossed my mind. Pre COVID, I routinely worked from home 1 – 2 days a week. The solace was nice. When I was in the office, I had an actual office, a room with a door I could close, where I could focus. During the quarantine that hasn’t always been the case. I’ve been frustrated, I’ve been short, I’ve gone to just take a drive and get the hell away for a moment and been disgusted when one of the kids sees me and asks me to come for a ride, robbing me of those minutes of silence. You want to hear silence. I get it. I really, really do.

Here’s another version of that, admittedly extreme. What if one of our kids becomes one of the 302? What’s that silence going to sound like? What if you have one of those matted frames where you add the kid’s school picture every year? What if you don’t get to finish the pictures?

“What does your gut tell you to do?”

Shawn and I have talked ad infinitum about all of these and other points. Two days ago, at mid-discussion I said, “Stop, right now, gut answer, what is it,” and we both said, “virtual.”
A lot of the arguments I hear people making for the 2 days sound like we’re trying to talk ourselves into ignoring our instincts, they are almost exclusively, “We’re doing 2 days, but…”. There’s a fantastic book by Gavin de Becker, The Gift of Fear, which I’ll minimize for you thusly: your gut instinct is a hardwired part of your brain and you should listen to it. In the introduction he talks about elevators, and how, of all living things, humans are the only ones that would voluntarily get into a soundproof steel box with a potential predator just so they could skip a flight of stairs.
I keep thinking that the 2 days option is the soundproof steel box. I welcome, damn, beg, anyone to convince me otherwise.

At the time I started writing at 12:09 PM, 133,420 Americans had died from COVID. Upon completing this draft at 7:04 PM, that number rose to 133,940.
520 Americans died of COVID while I was working on this. In seven hours.

The length of a school day.
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Offline Surly1

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Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2020, 04:28:36 AM »
Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
July 8, 2020 / John Pavlovitz




The President wants schools open in the Fall and he’s threatening to withhold funding to those that refuse—this while several states are seeing record numbers of new cases.

This is medically irresponsible.
It’s partisan politics of the most heinous variety.
It’s extortion leveraging the most vulnerable among us.

It’s also child abuse.

Willfully endangering the welfare of a child is almost universally agreed upon as the greatest of human transgressions, and yet this is the certain crime of an Administration who want to forcefully send millions of children, teachers, administrators, and support staff into close proximity to one another, in the throes of a pandemic that has as of this date killed 132,000 people—and for which there is no treatment and no vaccine.

The United States has been the victim of a woefully underprepared Federal response, a rushed reopening by Republican governors, a rudderless Administration, and the wild mood swings of a President who has spent more time planning vanity rallies and publicly criticizing his own medical experts—than he has formulating any kind of coherent plan to prevent more sickness and death.

As parents, to allow him any say into the lives and well-being of our children is to fail to properly protect them from harm. It is willful endangerment. This President is as great a threat to them as any monsters lurking online or around the corner, any accident or illness, any natural or created hazard.

The most pathetic aspect of this push to reopen schools is that it is being done in the name of caring for children, when in reality they are simply another meaningless human means to a political end, for a leader who is a sociopath in the most fundamental meaning of the word.

Donald Trump needs schools to open because he desperately requires the illusion of normalcy: a sweet-smelling Autumn veneer of ordinary to try and cover up the foul stench of death that the previous six months his recklessness, vanity, and hostility to Science have yielded.

If he can get some heartwarming footage of kids heading back to school, Trump hopes he can saturation-bomb social media before the election, and somehow make people forget that in February he called the virus a “Democratic hoax,” or said that it would be down to zero cases soon after, or that pushed all Summer against masks, or that he held a rally in the highest crest of the first wave, or that he allowed so many people to die without a tweet of compassion for their families.

This President, ever the divider, wants to suggest that those of us opposing him don’t want our kids in school, which is an asinine assertion. Most of us need to be out of the house working or work from home, and having our children at home is both a logistical and financial hardship. Of course, we want them to be in physical community with their peers and to have in-person education and to feel the joys of normal again.

We just want them not to die, more than these things.

This Administration has proven life is of no value to them. They have shown themselves willing to make elderly and sick people the acceptable collateral damage of prematurely jumpstarting the economy. Now, they’re willing to sacrifice our children on the shoddy altar of Capitalism and of Trump’s besieged reelection.

Our children (Republican, Democrat, or Independent) are worth far more than that.

They are not pawns or symbols or MAGA propaganda B-roll fodder, and they deserve better than this Administration populated by soulless ghouls who claim to be pro-life and yet have shown nothing but contempt for it: whether old or sick or foreign or black or female—or young lives.

And it isn’t just about politicians. We can’t even get MAGA adults to value wearing masks and distance and wash their hands. Tell me how we’re going to get millions of middle and and high school students raised with the same values, to do these things in the most compressed and socially-pressured environment? How can we expect students to honor the needs of others and the many health requirements that will need to be in place, when all they hear at home is that this virus is an overblown hoax and that masks are a form of oppression?

The President can threaten and posture and throw every insolent social media tantrum he wants to, and he will find the decent parents of this nation and those who love children, his more-than-worthy adversaries.

Republicans have no plan to keep Americans safe, and until they do good people will not endanger their kids or their teachers or their families—no matter how much Donald Trump needs us to for his political survival.

Far better his presidency dies than our children.
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Offline RE

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2020, 11:45:07 AM »
Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse

It's economics mainly.  If the schools don't reopen, then that's a lot of teachers on the unemployment lines.  Also lotta parent who can't go to work because they have no place to warehouse their kids.

RE
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Offline monsta666

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 01:47:43 PM »
It's economics mainly.  If the schools don't reopen, then that's a lot of teachers on the unemployment lines.  Also lotta parent who can't go to work because they have no place to warehouse their kids.

It is not just about economics; denying children formal education has major implications on their learning and development of social skills. Moreover if the kids are older you have additional problems such as how will they take their SATS and progress to university? The opening of schools is fraught with danger but significant problems can occur if you close schools for a prolonged period of time. Not an easy problem to fix. I would expect that the Federal or state governments to make a list of guidelines on how to minimise the risks involved. Unfortunately seeing what happened with the rushed reopenings I am not confident that will happen but that is another story...

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 02:47:29 PM »
Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse

It's economics mainly.  If the schools don't reopen, then that's a lot of teachers on the unemployment lines.  Also lotta parent who can't go to work because they have no place to warehouse their kids.

RE

A real politician would figure out how to open the schools and still keep everyone safe.  Too bad we don't have any.



The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 02:49:47 PM by K-Dog »
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Offline RE

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 04:13:06 PM »
It's economics mainly.  If the schools don't reopen, then that's a lot of teachers on the unemployment lines.  Also lotta parent who can't go to work because they have no place to warehouse their kids.

It is not just about economics; denying children formal education has major implications on their learning and development of social skills. Moreover if the kids are older you have additional problems such as how will they take their SATS and progress to university? The opening of schools is fraught with danger but significant problems can occur if you close schools for a prolonged period of time. Not an easy problem to fix. I would expect that the Federal or state governments to make a list of guidelines on how to minimise the risks involved. Unfortunately seeing what happened with the rushed reopenings I am not confident that will happen but that is another story...

The Public Skules have been shitholes for quite some time, basically since the system was developed in the 19th century.  The system needed to be eradicated anyhow.  There are still books to read and the internet to search, so nobody is being denied an education here.  And who needs to take SATs if nobody is going to Uni?  It's just an IQ test in disguise to select for smart kids.

There really is no way to reopen schools "safely" at this time.  The buildings don't support social distaning, classrooms aren't big enough.  Simply having all kids wear Masks doesn't work either, because that is not the only way a virus of this type gets transmitted.  It will get onto books, onto desks and onto the Book Reports the kids have to write for Homework.  If you oopen the schools more kids will pass along the disease and bring it home and spread it to other family members.  That is how it works.

RE
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Offline monsta666

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 04:38:53 PM »
The Public Skules have been shitholes for quite some time, basically since the system was developed in the 19th century.  The system needed to be eradicated anyhow.  There are still books to read and the internet to search, so nobody is being denied an education here.  And who needs to take SATs if nobody is going to Uni?  It's just an IQ test in disguise to select for smart kids.


There really is no way to reopen schools "safely" at this time.  The buildings don't support social distaning, classrooms aren't big enough.  Simply having all kids wear Masks doesn't work either, because that is not the only way a virus of this type gets transmitted.  It will get onto books, onto desks and onto the Book Reports the kids have to write for Homework.  If you oopen the schools more kids will pass along the disease and bring it home and spread it to other family members.  That is how it works.

Most children are going to school in Europe and you don't hear of mad outbreaks occurring there. Nothing is risk free but if people apply cetain measures then the risks can be minimised. As K-Dog alluded to; you need proper leadership to do this. Here is a decent article showing what other countries have done to get children back to school:

Coronavirus: Are countries around the world sending children back to school? (Independent)

Also as shitty as the schools in America maybe a place where schools don't exist would be much worse. You think kids will teach themselves with books or perhaps their parents will do a decent job at homeschooling? Most parents will make rubbish teachers hence the reasons for teachers in the first place.

Offline RE

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 04:50:49 PM »
Also as shitty as the schools in America maybe a place where schools don't exist would be much worse. You think kids will teach themselves with books or perhaps their parents will do a decent job at homeschooling? Most parents will make rubbish teachers hence the reasons for teachers in the first place.

Besides working as a Teacher in the Public Skules, I also worked as a Homeschool Supervisor in 2 Gymnastics programs where we Homeschooled our best Gymmies, who were in the gym 25-35 hours a week.  Basically a 1 room Schoolhouse for 6-12  gymmies.  The Moms took turns helping the kids , and if it was real difficult stuff they could not handle, they called me in.  We taught kids from 1st Grad to HS.  They did just fine on their SATs.  At least 2 I know of went on to become Doctors.

The Public Skule model is not the only possible model for Education.  There are other ways to do it.

RE
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 04:57:52 PM by RE »
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2020, 03:30:16 AM »
It's economics mainly.  If the schools don't reopen, then that's a lot of teachers on the unemployment lines.  Also lotta parent who can't go to work because they have no place to warehouse their kids.

It is not just about economics; denying children formal education has major implications on their learning and development of social skills. Moreover if the kids are older you have additional problems such as how will they take their SATS and progress to university? The opening of schools is fraught with danger but significant problems can occur if you close schools for a prolonged period of time. Not an easy problem to fix. I would expect that the Federal or state governments to make a list of guidelines on how to minimise the risks involved. Unfortunately seeing what happened with the rushed reopenings I am not confident that will happen but that is another story...

The CDC already published guidance, but Trump coughed up a hairball because the guidelines were "too strict." Meaning that they had a chance of being at least halfway effective.

The economic dimension of school closings is significant, but it is irresponsible AF to open schools in the middle of a panedmic for health reasons. Children get it too; a child of 5 died over the weekend in South Carolina. And the problem with sending children off to Petri dishes during the day is that they come home at night.
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Offline RE

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 04:20:52 AM »
The economic dimension of school closings is significant, but it is irresponsible AF to open schools in the middle of a panedmic for health reasons. Children get it too; a child of 5 died over the weekend in South Carolina. And the problem with sending children off to Petri dishes during the day is that they come home at night.

Most of the kids themselves will not die.  But their Grandmas and Grandpas will when they bring it home.  There are no better disease spreaders than kids with runny noses, trust me I know this from personal experience, hands on touching them up close and personal.  I had to fight this off my whole life.  My immune system is now as kick ass as you can get.  But most cannot fight it off, and most will spread it.  The kids will deliver it home, even faster than FedEx, when it Absolutely, Positively has to get there Overnight.

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Offline Surly1

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2020, 04:32:20 AM »
The economic dimension of school closings is significant, but it is irresponsible AF to open schools in the middle of a panedmic for health reasons. Children get it too; a child of 5 died over the weekend in South Carolina. And the problem with sending children off to Petri dishes during the day is that they come home at night.

Most of the kids themselves will not die.  But their Grandmas and Grandpas will when they bring it home.  There are no better disease spreaders than kids with runny noses, trust me I know this from personal experience, hands on touching them up close and personal.  I had to fight this off my whole life.  My immune system is now as kick ass as you can get.  But most cannot fight it off, and most will spread it.  The kids will deliver it home, even faster than FedEx, when it Absolutely, Positively has to get there Overnight.

RE

Another reason the Drooling Right likes to call Covid the "boomer remover."

And as far as your "immune system is now as kick ass as you can get," meet my new best friend, old age.
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Offline RE

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2020, 04:56:01 AM »

And as far as your "immune system is now as kick ass as you can get," meet my new best friend, old age.

Your immune system is like riding a bicycly.  It never forgets.

Surly, it is impossible to describe how sick I was this last month.  I cannot ever even remember being so sick, and I have been really sick. But I made it through, I got over it.  I wish I didn't and God would fucking take me already.  Asshole.   ::) This fight is getting me tired.  lol

RE
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Offline Phil Rumpole

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 03:23:07 PM »

And as far as your "immune system is now as kick ass as you can get," meet my new best friend, old age.

Your immune system is like riding a bicycly.  It never forgets.

Surly, it is impossible to describe how sick I was this last month.  I cannot ever even remember being so sick, and I have been really sick. But I made it through, I got over it.  I wish I didn't and God would fucking take me already.  Asshole.   ::) This fight is getting me tired.  lol

RE

There are no safety measures for schools really, except outdoor classes and denying playing or normality.

Opening schools is possible where you have almost no new cases and the testing and contact tracing, as well as quarantine of anyone entering the state is strict.


The big problem is this model of closing school, business etc impacts the young to save the old. Yes there are occasional cases where a child or young person dies, but even then, they have another underlying risk factor. It would be a lot more useful to look at number of young people who sustained lung damage or are not recovered. The economy and debt sustainability is another question.

This impact to the young, of whom many really are resentful and questioning the fairness of lockdown, is acceptable for possibly a year at the most. For many strains of virus, immunity is like riding a bicycle, you will continue to suppress it. I don't believe covid 19 is in this category, meaning you can get it again and again. The implication of that is, unless an effective vaccine is developed, this will carry on forever. If it does carry on two years or more, which I think it will (April/may "we'll get through this" seems to have petered out),  the young being denied education and employment becomes an issue that needs facing. At some point the question of focussing protection on those most at risk, possibly including retirement, will come up.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 03:25:57 PM by Phil Rumpole »
Women are like hurricanes: Wet and wild when they come, take your house when they leave

Offline RE

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Re: Forcing Schools to Open in A Pandemic is Child Abuse
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2020, 03:57:23 PM »

And as far as your "immune system is now as kick ass as you can get," meet my new best friend, old age.

Your immune system is like riding a bicycly.  It never forgets.

Surly, it is impossible to describe how sick I was this last month.  I cannot ever even remember being so sick, and I have been really sick. But I made it through, I got over it.  I wish I didn't and God would fucking take me already.  Asshole.   ::) This fight is getting me tired.  lol

RE

There are no safety measures for schools really, except outdoor classes and denying playing or normality.

Opening schools is possible where you have almost no new cases and the testing and contact tracing, as well as quarantine of anyone entering the state is strict.


The big problem is this model of closing school, business etc impacts the young to save the old. Yes there are occasional cases where a child or young person dies, but even then, they have another underlying risk factor. It would be a lot more useful to look at number of young people who sustained lung damage or are not recovered. The economy and debt sustainability is another question.

This impact to the young, of whom many really are resentful and questioning the fairness of lockdown, is acceptable for possibly a year at the most. For many strains of virus, immunity is like riding a bicycle, you will continue to suppress it. I don't believe covid 19 is in this category, meaning you can get it again and again. The implication of that is, unless an effective vaccine is developed, this will carry on forever. If it does carry on two years or more, which I think it will (April/may "we'll get through this" seems to have petered out),  the young being denied education and employment becomes an issue that needs facing. At some point the question of focussing protection on those most at risk, possibly including retirement, will come up.

If in fact it is true you can get the virus repeatedly even after an exposure and recovery, then no Vaccine can work.  Because what does a vaccine do?  It stimulates your immune system to develop antibodies to that type of virus.  But exposure to the virus itslef does an even better job of that then any vaccine could do.

As I have mentioned, I am pretty sure I caught the bug and fought it off.  But it was a tough fight, I was about as sick as you can get without dying.  lol.  i will report if I get those symptoms again, right before I shoot myself.

RE
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