AuthorTopic: Schizophrenia, Sin and the Self  (Read 1770 times)

Offline Ashvin

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Schizophrenia, Sin and the Self
« on: January 16, 2021, 09:12:04 PM »
Owen Barfield explores the phenomenon of modern mental illness, such as Schizophrenia, and how it reveals a fundamental alienation of the 'self' from the surrounding world and from the true Self in all of human society, with the Schizophrenics being the ones who are most aware of the alienation. Moderns experience this alienation as varying forms and degrees of insanity, while our ancestors experienced it as "sin". The former feels it is something that is happening to them, while the latter felt it was something they were actively involved in and, therefore, needed to take responsibility for.

And, in the process, he predicts the mentality endemic to the collectivist left with concepts like "white guilt" which will only serve to justify totalitarian goals.

History, Guilt and Habit - Chapter 2 - Modern Idolatry (excerpts)

There are two things that are noticeable about the modern psychology... the first is that the root, the subconscious root, of schizophrenia is increasingly being traced to the experience of what I will for the moment call "cut-offness". The second is that the experience is increasingly being regarded, not as one that is peculiar to the patient, but in a greater or less degree as one that is the predicament of humanity, or certainly Western humanity, as a whole.
...
The clinically schizoid are simply the ones who are becoming most sharply aware of it. Thus, they speak of the personality, or the self, as being isolated, encapsulated, excluded, estranged, alienated. There are many different ways of putting it. But what the self of each of us feels isolated from, cut off from, by its encapsulation in the nakedly physical reality presented to it by the common sense of contemporary culture, is precisely its own existential source [the 'true Self'].

Sin and Madness, by Dr. Shirley Sugerman... argues, convincingly to my mind, that what is now conceived and felt as insanity can only be properly understood as the evolutionary metamorphosis of what was formerly conceived and felt as sin.
...
But can there by sin without guilt? Paul Ricouer, in his book The Symbolism of Evil, observes, rightly I think, that a feeling of guilt is the fundamental experience of sin. If so, how can this contemporary madness, from which there is evidence that we all suffer, but about which we certainly do not feel guilty, have anything to do with sin? Perhaps because, although we do not feel guilty about the sin, we do feel guilty because of it.
...
There is atmosphere of guilt. Take for instance the issue of racialism, the relation between the advanced and the so-called "backward nations", or between white and colored... what was until recently called "the white man's burden" was a burden of responsibility, not of guilt.
...
People seem almost to go out of their way to find things to feel guilty about, or to encourage others to feel guilty about. I can think of two reasons in particular why it is bad... such confused feelings of guilt tend to beget paralysis rather than energy... when they do not beget paralysis, feelings of guilt tend to turn rather easily into feelings of hatred and contempt. We may feel a bit guilty ourselves, but we are very sure that a whole lot of other people are much more guilty, and probably ought to be destroyed.
...
And just this darker side to the experience of guilt seems to be even more evident when the experience is collective rather than when it is the individual. 'All are responsible for all', said Alyosha in The Brothers Karamazov. A noble, a truly human sentiment - perhaps the only absolutely human sentiment there is... It is the irritation of guilt that turns it into the impulse to compel, into a determination to use every kind of violence, every device of indoctrination, in order to enforce on all a systematic equality that must entail a mechanical and inhuman uniformity.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 09:16:37 PM by Ashvin »

Offline knarf

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Re: Schizophrenia, Sin and the Self
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2021, 04:23:41 AM »
Owen Barfield explores the phenomenon of modern mental illness, such as Schizophrenia, and how it reveals a fundamental alienation of the 'self' from the surrounding world and from the true Self in all of human society, with the Schizophrenics being the ones who are most aware of the alienation. Moderns experience this alienation as varying forms and degrees of insanity, while our ancestors experienced it as "sin". The former feels it is something that is happening to them, while the latter felt it was something they were actively involved in and, therefore, needed to take responsibility for.

And, in the process, he predicts the mentality endemic to the collectivist left with concepts like "white guilt" which will only serve to justify totalitarian goals.

History, Guilt and Habit - Chapter 2 - Modern Idolatry (excerpts)

There are two things that are noticeable about the modern psychology... the first is that the root, the subconscious root, of schizophrenia is increasingly being traced to the experience of what I will for the moment call "cut-offness". The second is that the experience is increasingly being regarded, not as one that is peculiar to the patient, but in a greater or less degree as one that is the predicament of humanity, or certainly Western humanity, as a whole.
...
The clinically schizoid are simply the ones who are becoming most sharply aware of it. Thus, they speak of the personality, or the self, as being isolated, encapsulated, excluded, estranged, alienated. There are many different ways of putting it. But what the self of each of us feels isolated from, cut off from, by its encapsulation in the nakedly physical reality presented to it by the common sense of contemporary culture, is precisely its own existential source [the 'true Self'].

Sin and Madness, by Dr. Shirley Sugerman... argues, convincingly to my mind, that what is now conceived and felt as insanity can only be properly understood as the evolutionary metamorphosis of what was formerly conceived and felt as sin.
...
But can there by sin without guilt? Paul Ricouer, in his book The Symbolism of Evil, observes, rightly I think, that a feeling of guilt is the fundamental experience of sin. If so, how can this contemporary madness, from which there is evidence that we all suffer, but about which we certainly do not feel guilty, have anything to do with sin? Perhaps because, although we do not feel guilty about the sin, we do feel guilty because of it.
...
There is atmosphere of guilt. Take for instance the issue of racialism, the relation between the advanced and the so-called "backward nations", or between white and colored... what was until recently called "the white man's burden" was a burden of responsibility, not of guilt.
...
People seem almost to go out of their way to find things to feel guilty about, or to encourage others to feel guilty about. I can think of two reasons in particular why it is bad... such confused feelings of guilt tend to beget paralysis rather than energy... when they do not beget paralysis, feelings of guilt tend to turn rather easily into feelings of hatred and contempt. We may feel a bit guilty ourselves, but we are very sure that a whole lot of other people are much more guilty, and probably ought to be destroyed.
...
And just this darker side to the experience of guilt seems to be even more evident when the experience is collective rather than when it is the individual. 'All are responsible for all', said Alyosha in The Brothers Karamazov. A noble, a truly human sentiment - perhaps the only absolutely human sentiment there is... It is the irritation of guilt that turns it into the impulse to compel, into a determination to use every kind of violence, every device of indoctrination, in order to enforce on all a systematic equality that must entail a mechanical and inhuman uniformity.

  When I was 19 through 27 years old I was a born again Christian. I was in several Christian bands, and I read profusely. C.S. Lewis, de Chardin, Bonhoeffer, Merton and other very intellectual books on Christian Apologetics. I studied the original Greek meanings of words and phrases in the Bible. I remember reading "Evidence that demands a Verdict" and "knowing" that was the proof we needed to convince none believers of the historical facts of Jesus's existence. Through all my study I realized that sophisticated knowledge of Christianity was lacking a fundamental principle. The direct, immediate, and complete union with Christ. So that became my practice. Walking as Jesus walked, not philosophizing but living his commandments. I found that loving your enemy was immensely important, and that union in Christ meant that those who followed him were part of one body, each member acting as different parts of the body. So the intellectual brain was just a small part of the whole church. I also was convinced that any belief that was different than the Christian way was in error, and so much of the time inspired by the tempter, Satan, appearing as an angel of light/knowledge. But, I never could resolve why God punished very loving humans that were not Christian. So the word Christian became metaphorical for a higher kind of consciousness, as long as the motivation was love and alleviation of suffering. When I was 34 I entered a small Buddhist monastery to experience the "eastern" approach to union with God.
  I had many friends that were a lot like you. In fact my 1st wife was the daughter of a preacher man. :) Church of Christ, with a long history of a very conservative family tree. George Benson, once President of Harding College was her Grandfather, whom I met.   Wikipedia info : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Benson
  She also was attracted to Christian intellectuals and we joined a house church consisting of about 25 such people. Eventually we divorced because I became influenced by Satan, and started accepting that there are millions of ways to unite with "god".
  I feel like I have met many people similar to you, and can follow much of your conditioning in Christ. Albeit your take is very allusive being so intellectual.
  You are a missionary for Jesus on the very conservative fringe. I have seen it many times. It is a very small group compared to all the rest of how humans believe.   You feel alienated as you have just described by this post, and border on schizophrenia. It is not the people on the dinner who are deluded, it is your alienated being that is so fierce and "cut-off". This article describes your condition perfectly. Schizophrenics often do things to be identified as something, because they are lost, as you have by posting this subconscious post above. I would hope that whatever it is that has such a strong control over you will soon be revealed to you so you can walk the walk, instead of isolating yourself in the self made prison you occupy.
  I would appreciate it if you would stop a minute and realize that there are Christian intellectuals that are "socialists", and lean far left. Chris Hedges for example. I thought Thomas Merton to be so also. Your dogmatic position only adds to the martyrdom complex of being isolated and cut-off from most other people. You too can change that, maybe, and develop into a full human being, but it will take a major shift in your a priori's. No one can convince a Martyr that their position is extreme, because it goes with the territory. It is a self perpetuating game, a self fulfilling prophecy.
NECROCAPITALISM at http://openmind693.wordpress.com ‘Rolling thunder. Shock. A noble one in fear and dread sets things in order and is watchful.’ I-Ching (Hex.51)

Offline Ashvin

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Re: Schizophrenia, Sin and the Self
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2021, 07:56:19 AM »
Owen Barfield explores the phenomenon of modern mental illness, such as Schizophrenia, and how it reveals a fundamental alienation of the 'self' from the surrounding world and from the true Self in all of human society, with the Schizophrenics being the ones who are most aware of the alienation. Moderns experience this alienation as varying forms and degrees of insanity, while our ancestors experienced it as "sin". The former feels it is something that is happening to them, while the latter felt it was something they were actively involved in and, therefore, needed to take responsibility for.

And, in the process, he predicts the mentality endemic to the collectivist left with concepts like "white guilt" which will only serve to justify totalitarian goals.

History, Guilt and Habit - Chapter 2 - Modern Idolatry (excerpts)

There are two things that are noticeable about the modern psychology... the first is that the root, the subconscious root, of schizophrenia is increasingly being traced to the experience of what I will for the moment call "cut-offness". The second is that the experience is increasingly being regarded, not as one that is peculiar to the patient, but in a greater or less degree as one that is the predicament of humanity, or certainly Western humanity, as a whole.
...
The clinically schizoid are simply the ones who are becoming most sharply aware of it. Thus, they speak of the personality, or the self, as being isolated, encapsulated, excluded, estranged, alienated. There are many different ways of putting it. But what the self of each of us feels isolated from, cut off from, by its encapsulation in the nakedly physical reality presented to it by the common sense of contemporary culture, is precisely its own existential source [the 'true Self'].

Sin and Madness, by Dr. Shirley Sugerman... argues, convincingly to my mind, that what is now conceived and felt as insanity can only be properly understood as the evolutionary metamorphosis of what was formerly conceived and felt as sin.
...
But can there by sin without guilt? Paul Ricouer, in his book The Symbolism of Evil, observes, rightly I think, that a feeling of guilt is the fundamental experience of sin. If so, how can this contemporary madness, from which there is evidence that we all suffer, but about which we certainly do not feel guilty, have anything to do with sin? Perhaps because, although we do not feel guilty about the sin, we do feel guilty because of it.
...
There is atmosphere of guilt. Take for instance the issue of racialism, the relation between the advanced and the so-called "backward nations", or between white and colored... what was until recently called "the white man's burden" was a burden of responsibility, not of guilt.
...
People seem almost to go out of their way to find things to feel guilty about, or to encourage others to feel guilty about. I can think of two reasons in particular why it is bad... such confused feelings of guilt tend to beget paralysis rather than energy... when they do not beget paralysis, feelings of guilt tend to turn rather easily into feelings of hatred and contempt. We may feel a bit guilty ourselves, but we are very sure that a whole lot of other people are much more guilty, and probably ought to be destroyed.
...
And just this darker side to the experience of guilt seems to be even more evident when the experience is collective rather than when it is the individual. 'All are responsible for all', said Alyosha in The Brothers Karamazov. A noble, a truly human sentiment - perhaps the only absolutely human sentiment there is... It is the irritation of guilt that turns it into the impulse to compel, into a determination to use every kind of violence, every device of indoctrination, in order to enforce on all a systematic equality that must entail a mechanical and inhuman uniformity.

  When I was 19 through 27 years old I was a born again Christian. I was in several Christian bands, and I read profusely. C.S. Lewis, de Chardin, Bonhoeffer, Merton and other very intellectual books on Christian Apologetics. I studied the original Greek meanings of words and phrases in the Bible. I remember reading "Evidence that demands a Verdict" and "knowing" that was the proof we needed to convince none believers of the historical facts of Jesus's existence. Through all my study I realized that sophisticated knowledge of Christianity was lacking a fundamental principle. The direct, immediate, and complete union with Christ. So that became my practice. Walking as Jesus walked, not philosophizing but living his commandments. I found that loving your enemy was immensely important, and that union in Christ meant that those who followed him were part of one body, each member acting as different parts of the body. So the intellectual brain was just a small part of the whole church. I also was convinced that any belief that was different than the Christian way was in error, and so much of the time inspired by the tempter, Satan, appearing as an angel of light/knowledge. But, I never could resolve why God punished very loving humans that were not Christian. So the word Christian became metaphorical for a higher kind of consciousness, as long as the motivation was love and alleviation of suffering. When I was 34 I entered a small Buddhist monastery to experience the "eastern" approach to union with God.
  I had many friends that were a lot like you. In fact my 1st wife was the daughter of a preacher man. :) Church of Christ, with a long history of a very conservative family tree. George Benson, once President of Harding College was her Grandfather, whom I met.   Wikipedia info : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Benson
  She also was attracted to Christian intellectuals and we joined a house church consisting of about 25 such people. Eventually we divorced because I became influenced by Satan, and started accepting that there are millions of ways to unite with "god".
  I feel like I have met many people similar to you, and can follow much of your conditioning in Christ. Albeit your take is very allusive being so intellectual.
  You are a missionary for Jesus on the very conservative fringe. I have seen it many times. It is a very small group compared to all the rest of how humans believe.   You feel alienated as you have just described by this post, and border on schizophrenia. It is not the people on the dinner who are deluded, it is your alienated being that is so fierce and "cut-off". This article describes your condition perfectly. Schizophrenics often do things to be identified as something, because they are lost, as you have by posting this subconscious post above. I would hope that whatever it is that has such a strong control over you will soon be revealed to you so you can walk the walk, instead of isolating yourself in the self made prison you occupy.
  I would appreciate it if you would stop a minute and realize that there are Christian intellectuals that are "socialists", and lean far left. Chris Hedges for example. I thought Thomas Merton to be so also. Your dogmatic position only adds to the martyrdom complex of being isolated and cut-off from most other people. You too can change that, maybe, and develop into a full human being, but it will take a major shift in your a priori's. No one can convince a Martyr that their position is extreme, because it goes with the territory. It is a self perpetuating game, a self fulfilling prophecy.

This is typical ideological nonsense... instead of reading and trying to understand what as posted, you take your badly formed image of the messenger and go after that instead. I would appreciate if you stop thinking YOUR way of doing things is the RIGHT way. Just because you are not familiar with abstract reasoning and philosophy does not mean you have to completely rule it out as a useful way of approaching Christianity. That is the ideological and totalitarian mindset and has no place in authentic Christian faith.

Barfield was an Anthroposophist (meaning he followed Rudolf Steiner), who is about as far from "conservative Christian fringe" as you can get. Maybe you should do a little bit of research before replying. Anyway, he predicted spot on the "cancel culture" totalitarianism of the Western left right now, who are motivated by their own repressed guilt for being so alienated from spirituality. People like you think making Christ a political figurehead is the way to restore meaning to your life, but that is just more of the same idolatry the evangelical "fundamentalists" on the right are engaged in. You have much more in common with them than I do.

Offline knarf

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Re: Schizophrenia, Sin and the Self
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2021, 11:03:24 AM »

This is typical ideological nonsense... Instead of reading and trying to understand what as posted, you take your badly formed image of the messenger and go after that instead. I would appreciate if you stop thinking YOUR way of doing things is the RIGHT way. Just because you are not familiar with abstract reasoning and philosophy does not mean you have to completely rule it out as a useful way of approaching Christianity. That is the ideological and totalitarian mindset and has no place in authentic Christian faith.

Barfield was an Anthroposophist (meaning he followed Rudolf Steiner), who is about as far from "conservative Christian fringe" as you can get. Maybe you should do a little bit of research before replying. Anyway, he predicted spot on the "cancel culture" totalitarianism of the Western left right now, who are motivated by their own repressed guilt for being so alienated from spirituality.People like you think making Christ a political figurehead is the way to restore meaning to your life, but that is just more of the same idolatry the evangelical "fundamentalists" on the right are engaged in. You have much more in common with them than I do.
Quote

Everything in bold is a lie, everything underlined is doubtful and more propaganda foolishness, everything in italics are self projection...own it.  You might seriously consider being deprogrammed by an expert who deals in lost, crazy people. You don't even realize you have become accustomed to  your fringe, isolationist view, it is just like your clothing, but you can't remove your "proud martyr" complex. I will not keep engaging with you until you realize how much you project your twisted, convoluted take that is scrambled in your mind. Also you need to watch the video K-Dog posted :

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,13966.msg195592/topicseen.html#msg195592
NECROCAPITALISM at http://openmind693.wordpress.com ‘Rolling thunder. Shock. A noble one in fear and dread sets things in order and is watchful.’ I-Ching (Hex.51)

Offline monsta666

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Re: Schizophrenia, Sin and the Self
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2021, 12:41:30 PM »
This is typical ideological nonsense... instead of reading and trying to understand what as posted, you take your badly formed image of the messenger and go after that instead. I would appreciate if you stop thinking YOUR way of doing things is the RIGHT way. Just because you are not familiar with abstract reasoning and philosophy does not mean you have to completely rule it out as a useful way of approaching Christianity. That is the ideological and totalitarian mindset and has no place in authentic Christian faith.

You're a very intelligent person Ashvin but the issue I have seen is that quite often you are abrasive, abrupt and condescending. To be a more effective communicator it is vital to try and relate to the person you are trying to engage with rather than create animosity. At the end of the day most people don't actually remember what you say rather they remember how you made them feel. If you talk down on others then people will only remember the negative emotions and shoot your ideas down. Relate to people, gauge how people think, empathise then show them a way that will highlight the benefits of following your idea. You got to appeal to peoples' emotions to get a more favourable response.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: Schizophrenia, Sin and the Self
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2021, 04:28:35 PM »
This is typical ideological nonsense... instead of reading and trying to understand what as posted, you take your badly formed image of the messenger and go after that instead. I would appreciate if you stop thinking YOUR way of doing things is the RIGHT way. Just because you are not familiar with abstract reasoning and philosophy does not mean you have to completely rule it out as a useful way of approaching Christianity. That is the ideological and totalitarian mindset and has no place in authentic Christian faith.

You're a very intelligent person Ashvin but the issue I have seen is that quite often you are abrasive, abrupt and condescending. To be a more effective communicator it is vital to try and relate to the person you are trying to engage with rather than create animosity. At the end of the day most people don't actually remember what you say rather they remember how you made them feel. If you talk down on others then people will only remember the negative emotions and shoot your ideas down. Relate to people, gauge how people think, empathise then show them a way that will highlight the benefits of following your idea. You got to appeal to peoples' emotions to get a more favourable response.

We aren't little children here playing with toys. If you seriously go back and read through the postings, you will see that people take it personal and "abrasive" with me before I ever do with them. But I don't whine and complain about it, acting like it prevents me from using my brain to figure out what they are saying. I am not a politician or celebrity trying to manipulate people's emotions to get them to listen to me. I may do that in my day job when it matters, but certainly not on this forum where it hardly matters. I am the only one here who posts articles AND analysis in a variety of different topics from politics to philosophy/religion (rather than knarf's article dumps with no commentary, theme or narrative). Just look at his first response to my original post and ask yourself whether you can honestly claim I started in on him before he did on me. Seriously, be honest. If you can't do that, then I have no reason to take your "criticisms" constructively because dishonest people do not offer anything constructively.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 04:43:52 PM by Ashvin »

Offline Ashvin

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Re: Schizophrenia, Sin and the Self
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2021, 05:35:29 PM »

This is typical ideological nonsense... Instead of reading and trying to understand what as posted, you take your badly formed image of the messenger and go after that instead. I would appreciate if you stop thinking YOUR way of doing things is the RIGHT way. Just because you are not familiar with abstract reasoning and philosophy does not mean you have to completely rule it out as a useful way of approaching Christianity. That is the ideological and totalitarian mindset and has no place in authentic Christian faith.

Barfield was an Anthroposophist (meaning he followed Rudolf Steiner), who is about as far from "conservative Christian fringe" as you can get. Maybe you should do a little bit of research before replying. Anyway, he predicted spot on the "cancel culture" totalitarianism of the Western left right now, who are motivated by their own repressed guilt for being so alienated from spirituality.People like you think making Christ a political figurehead is the way to restore meaning to your life, but that is just more of the same idolatry the evangelical "fundamentalists" on the right are engaged in. You have much more in common with them than I do.

Everything in bold is a lie, everything underlined is doubtful and more propaganda foolishness, everything in italics are self projection...own it.  You might seriously consider being deprogrammed by an expert who deals in lost, crazy people. You don't even realize you have become accustomed to  your fringe, isolationist view, it is just like your clothing, but you can't remove your "proud martyr" complex. I will not keep engaging with you until you realize how much you project your twisted, convoluted take that is scrambled in your mind. Also you need to watch the video K-Dog posted :

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,13966.msg195592/topicseen.html#msg195592


I started watching that video... the guy literally looks and sounds like an automaton reading a script as either a hostage or a hostage taker, I'm not sure which. Why do you find that appealing, and why do you find that more appealing than someone who wants to have a dialogue instead of sitting there by himself preaching to conservatives about why they are "confused"? Seriously think about your answer to that one and get back to me. Here is an example of people who authentically want to dialogue and make sense of what is happening:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/0-HL9Cl_hn0" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/0-HL9Cl_hn0</a>
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 05:37:45 PM by Ashvin »

 

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