AuthorTopic: The Sound of One Hand Clapping  (Read 39028 times)

Offline monsta666

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Re: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2014, 08:53:48 AM »
Shouldn't our goal be to try prevent Doom for everyone, not just ourselves?  And isn't it the only realistic method for long term survival?

It appears to me you are a fatalist giving in to Doom with this save me and my tribe attitude, everyone else is going down the toilet.

Sure this is the ideal scenario. As they say: prevention is better than the cure. However what if the condition is so bad/advanced that prevention is not possible? I hold the position that industrial civilisation is unsustainable and therefore it will end. As a consequence there will be much suffering and even mass deaths. It is very tragic and cannot be avoided so what can one do and that is how I would define "doom". So the question I would ask to you is if doom will come (and cannot be prevented) what can one do about it?

To make myself clearer I will use an analogy: it would be a little like someone having terminal cancer. The outcome is dire and almost certain to end badly but does this mean you roll over and admit defeat? This does not seem like a good response and it would be better to try and do the things that maximise your chance of survival and failing that just make your remaining days as good as possible. The other benefit to trying is you can at least hold your head high that you tried to do the right thing before finally succumbing to your condition. I think this is the general sentiment held by doomers.

Oh and just so you know I do NOT believe the situation is entirely like terminal cancer; I am not a full "uber" doomer who believes in the near-term extinction of mankind. I just used the analogy to demonstrate that a dire outcome is inevitable now and we missed the boat to prevent this tragedy from happening. The time for prevention was the oil crisis of the 70s and 80s. Instead of facing the realities then the governments turned away from gold into fiat and said good morning America. The realities of our problems have been shoved under the carpet for so long that the consequences can no longer be prevented. To use more cancer analogies the early cancerous cells were identified long ago but instead of taking action then we took the ostrich approach and pretended everything was fine. Now we are starting to show symptoms of ill health and the doctor is giving us bigger more obvious warning signs than before but this only makes us want to double down on our previous actions and we dig our heads ever deeper in the sand to avoid the reality of the situation. We are stubborn ostriches!

Going back though, I believe you and agelbert hold a fundamentally different position because you feel doom can be prevented if we take the necessary steps. For sake of argument what would you say if doom cannot be prevented? By doom I mean the end of civilisation as we know it and not the end of mankind. How would you tell people to cope in that scenario? It is terrible position to give advice to and I can understand the difficulty of accepting the scenario nevermind offering a solution but it is what it is. Life is not fair and you got to deal with the cards put in front of you.

Offline g

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Re: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2014, 09:49:45 AM »
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Going back though, I believe you and agelbert hold a fundamentally different position because you feel doom can be prevented if we take the necessary steps. For sake of argument what would you say if doom cannot be prevented? By doom I mean the end of civilisation as we know it and not the end of mankind. How would you tell people to cope in that scenario? It is terrible position to give advice to and I can understand the difficulty of accepting the scenario nevermind offering a solution but it is what it is. Life is not fair and you got to deal with the cards put in front of you.

Fair enough Monsta. You place me on the Titanic, convince me beyond all doubt it is going to sink. most are going to perish save a few that can get to a lifeboat.

The actual response of the community in that situation was to try and save the woman and children. The rest had to prepare themselves to meet their maker. I don't see the Diner solution as fitting neatly into either camp.

Of course we face a different dilemma, we have some time, and are probably not going to be engulfed all at the exact same time. For that reason, the fact there is time to act, I continue to have some hope of a combined group wake up effort to do something.

For the record I agree with you 100 % about our squandered opportunities to act sooner.  The Arab Oil embargo was a great wake up call to get us thinking and acting responsibly about energy. We infested the roads with SUV's and trailer trucks delivering Twinkies in response to it. Going off gold was a way for the Banksters to enslave the world with debt and cause everyone to waste scarce resources on things they would never have been able to purchase with real money requiring labor and savings.

Not a Pollyanna Monsta, believe me I share your dismay and cynicism, but continue to hold to hope and constructive thinking as not being fully exhausted and deserving of all our attention. 

Offline DoomerSupport

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Re: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2014, 10:28:02 AM »

Nobody is asking you to take shit from ANYONE. I am telling you that use of the term "feminazi" offends ME, as it signals alliance with the forces of reaction and fascism that I despise. Feel free to double down on defense on your own blind spot, but if you don't recognize that use of such a terms carries with it an unfortunate attitude about women as part of its cultural baggage… not much I can do.

We see things differently, Surly.  I see extreme feminism as, "Wow, we wimmyn need to get that patriarchal power for ourselves 'cos we're better than men."

Fascism does not have to be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.  Look at the techniques they employ to silence anyone that disagrees with their totalitarian agenda. Look at how they have been hounding Dimtry and how they tried to disrupt the AofL conference with their extremist agenda.  They continue to pursue him with a fanticism that boarders on psychotic.

I saw a facebook post complaining of RE's "hopium" and how the dire situation was the fault of men and how the unwelcome Diners (RE  et al was how she phrased it) were taking over the NBL. If a male cured cancer, they would be condemned for doing so while having a Y chromosome, it would be part of the male domination conspiracy.   

I have no problem with equality, but not a simple reversal of roles.  That exchanges one radical group of 'power-over' individuals with another.

I first encountered this extremism with the pagan community back in those 90's, where people like Z-budapest was doing her Fred Phelps Drag act long before WBC broke onto the scene.  In like manner, extreme feminists of the secular variety are little more than the Rush crowd in Drag. 

Do you take offence to people using the term "socialist" because the same right wing group have turned it into a pejorative term?  Personally, I do not let talk radio define the terms of the conversation, I came to the conclusion that that radical feminists had more in common with the extreme right than with those fighting for equality a long time ago.
 


« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 10:49:53 AM by Haniel »

Offline DoomerSupport

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Re: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2014, 10:45:05 AM »
RE's point that something has to be done and not just sit back and lament doom is valid in my view.

Where I leave the tracks are with his and most Diner's practical solutions.

I honestly don't see how hiding in the woods waiting for the swat teams, or disease, or hungry people with guns to arrive; or being holed up in a bug out machine, eating beans and listening to radio reports of my neighbors being destroyed in a real life Mad Max movie are practical solutions. :icon_scratch:

Agreed.  I want to move to a more sustainable, rural lifestyle because it appeals to be.  sustainability is something I am running towards, doom is not something I am running away from.

I grew up in a small village, left for the bright lights of the city, and found it did not live up to my expectations.  I then sought out the American dream, not realizing it had been packaged, securitized, sold to private industry and replaced with Disney caricature of hope.

So I'm seeking the simpler lifestyle of my youth.

Quote
Not being negative, just honest, what does that accomplish and how does that prevent or fight against Doomsday's arrival?

Shouldn't our goal be to try prevent Doom for everyone, not just ourselves?  And isn't it the only realistic method for long term survival?

It appears to me you are a fatalist giving in to Doom with this save me and my tribe attitude, everyone else is going down the toilet.

I'm more of a, "save those who want to be saved" type of person.  I'm not going to drag others along with me, I just don't want to be dragged along with them.  If people like the NBL crowd want to treat this as "hospice" that's a valid approach and they should be allows to follow it. 


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Despite the horrible odds against us, I think things can be done, may I point to the internet as a force that seems to offer some hope in my view. I point to it because of what I conceive as the miracle of us all meeting, becoming intimately acquainted with one another in many cases, etc through this remarkable medium. Perhaps a group of millions of the concerned could be formed and force a dialogue that demands action be taken for the good of all.

When you get numbers like that, you attract the wrong crowd, either wanting to use the "movement" for their own ends, or to sell them something. Look at how Monsanto now calls itself a "Sustainable food company" - they have the money to redefine "sustainable" to be the use of GMO's to keep profits sustainable, and to hell with the biosphere. 


Quote
Diner Agelbert is a font of many practical solutions to problems. I have a pet view that it is possible to start a movement of severe conservation among the youth and aware people of the planet through the internet. All of us cutting out unnecessary driving, wasteful heating and air conditioning, sacrilegious food and water waste etc. could give us a great deal more time to deal with a Doomsday scenario.  :dontknow:

I like the technologies Agelbert brings to our attention.  Some of them will be "appropriate" in the years to come.  Since none of us know which, it's good to see the smorgasbord.



Offline Eddie

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Re: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2014, 11:19:00 AM »
I slept in and missed this conversation...probably just as well. I'd never use the term feminazi because I truly do hate Limbaugh and his ilk, and I don't want to ever have anyone mistake me for one of those ditto-heads or whatever they're called now. And i often am mistaken for one of them anyway, although I see myself quite different from them.

My real take on feminism is just that it was a movement with a wide variety of male and female adherents, some of whom were always way out there, and many more who were fighting for a just cause. Some of the more radical adherents have been made fun of in literature for more than forty years (ref: Ellen Jamesians).

Radical lesbians often got a lot of press, and they weren't nice to men.

Another factor that I think made feminism get way out of hand had to do with divorce, and women being forced into male roles that they weren't prepared to fill, and that that changed their sexuality into a more male-esque role out of necessity. It left them tired, resentful and sexually unfulfilled. Feminism was a place to go to bitch about all that, and commiserate with all the other abandoned women.

My big issue, as I've said before, has to do with how feminism led to male Political Correctness of a sort that emasculated boys and young men, eventually, and caused relationship issues for a whole generation of couples, myself included. Eventually certain smart individuals  started writing about those topics, and nowadays there is a fair amount of good pop psychology (don't know if it ever made it into the university) out there that tries to explain that:

Men and women are both human, and exist evidently to get on together, have sexual relationships and raise children...and that both men and women get a lot of positive energy out of relationships that let men be men and women be women, sexually speaking.

In one sense, I am still pro-feminism, because I believe in equal pay for equal work, and I believe in equal rights in general.

But when I go to NBL to read, there is still that anti-male residue that offends me so much, and I find myself wanting to unload on those women, whom I consider misguided and....yeah, stupid. they need to get over some things, and do their own personal work, so that they can grow into the light.
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2014, 12:52:35 PM »
You seem to think that your "gonzo" style of referring to other ethnic groups by "Nips" or "Krauts" gives you license to say anything you want. Also interesting to see the knee jerk response coming form men who apparently don't know how handle a relationship with a take-no-shit woman.

A take no shit woman and a woman whom hates men simply because they are men are not the same thing.

Quote
It is you and your libertard apologists who are fucking up the Diner brand by using a Limbaugh coinage in a particularly charged context. You want to turn this board into The Burning Diner, go ahead. Llpoh will love it.

"Libertard apologists"  what is this thing?  A liberal apologist?  I'm serious.  You are very political Surly...sometimes you confuse me.  Likewise who is Llpoh?  Limbaugh is a D-bag IMO.  I don't listen to him or any other talking radio head, or idiot panel head for that matter.  But I've heard Limbaugh on the radio.  When I was on the meat wagon I would occasionally listen to his dumb ass out of boredom.  Every time he opened his mouth, just about, he proved my assessment of his D-bagness correct. 

Quote
I owe it to you to tell you when you are fucking up. You're fucking up on this one, and I don't care who feels the need to hold your coat, especially the crypto-nazi who finds a leftist under every leaf.

Am I holding RE's coat?  I said my piece, and that's how I personally feel about it.  In this case I happen to agree with RE, but I'm not holding any fuckin' coat.  And who the hell are the "crypto-nazi's"? 

I think I may just be misunderstanding you here Surly.  But if you don't mind...would you clear these questions up for me.  I'm not being facetious or sarcastic in case you were wondering...

As far as the racial slurs go :eekout:

Seriously, I'm of mostly WASP origin with a good chunk of Native American mixed in.  Like most Americans I'm a heinz 57.  I've go Irish, Scottish, English, German, Prussian,  Black Foot, and Cherokee...that I know of.  I'm not of color.  I think people whom have a problem with race or nationality are just ignorant simpletons and in many cases stupid.  I became identified as a worldcentric being when I was 19.  I identify as a human being on planet Earth, and I identify all other humans the same. 

It's my opinion that people need to fuckin' lighten up.  There are radiation clouds for cryin' out loud.  WTF??   :icon_scratch:

Offline Eddie

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Re: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2014, 01:47:08 PM »
This thread is the first on a NEW BOARD here inside the Diner, DOOM PSYCHOLOGY! 

Here armchair Sigmund Freuds can start threads analyzing how everyone thinks and how living with impending DOOM affects the Human Consciousness.  Your work will be reviewed by a Professional Shrink Bunkered up in Tasmania. 

I think this will be a Popular Board.   


Oh goodie! We need this Board! Long overdue. I'd rather be more of an armchair Jung, though. He understood what women really want.

( Just kidding. No feminists were harmed in the making of this post, as far as I know.)



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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2014, 02:01:25 PM »
Eddie
 I doubt you need to worry about being associated with Rush Limbou crowd if you did use the word. Certainly in the rest of the world nobody knows who he is but people of all political persuasions know what a feminazi is. I doubt many americans associate the word with that guy unless they listened to him. I was the first person here to use the 'feminazi' word following the Orlov age of limits incident discussion.

Surly
Since I first used the word and your comments seem to mean me.
Im assuming you mean me by "crypto-nazi who sees a leftist under every whatever it was." And possibly also "cant handle relationship with a strong woman".

Crypto? I made it clear I think you only object to the term feminazi because it was supposedly coined (more likely popularized) by this Rush guy. You OTOH are being cryptic about who 'cant handle a relationship with a strong woman and see a leftist under every...' but I think its me.

I don't waste my time on the left vs right non issue. Education where Womens Studies indoctrinates a sisterhood attitude of inequal treatment is all run by leftists, and I question your greater allegiance to the left over self interest in being treated equally because they do not see you as equal but as the bogey. I made clear about Tony Abbott, I have never voted for neocons even though I could have done if it was about 'whats in it for me'. What is your pet hate and primary focus. The Right bogey. Then you talk about alienating strong women, but how about alienating half the men and women?

Where I think you are being blind is the suggestion this is about strong women and not the treatment of men as second class citizens by radical feminists who decide policies, and thinking that rejecting that institutional inequality means I cant handle a relationship with a strong woman. Usually the radical feminists infer that home-makers are not strong women and career women are strong, or basically all women are strong and these positive words are only applied to women.

In the 90's the strong woman who I apparently cant handle a relationship with was referred to as a 'strong woman' by a feminazi who had never met her too. I will point out she is one of the people in "policy development" in the public service police department, yukking it up with politicians and dreaming up all those nice new laws and initiatives. So if you hear protesting has become illegal and increased penalties to years in jail in WA you bet mrs UB worked on it.

She votes Left, the union tells her to and almost all public servants do based on whats in it for them, greater govt spending. Junior and I fly back to the mainland/big city on thursday for 10 days, were not far away on a future farm because I cant handle a relationship with a so called strong woman according to feminist claptrap career ideas, but not if youre talking about a strong conscience. That suggestion shits me Surly, so you can shove it.


« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 02:11:15 PM by Uncle Bob »
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: The Sound of One Hand Clapping
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2014, 02:01:46 PM »
This thread is the first on a NEW BOARD here inside the Diner, DOOM PSYCHOLOGY! 

Here armchair Sigmund Freuds can start threads analyzing how everyone thinks and how living with impending DOOM affects the Human Consciousness.  Your work will be reviewed by a Professional Shrink Bunkered up in Tasmania. 

I think this will be a Popular Board.   


Oh goodie! We need this Board! Long overdue. I'd rather be more of an armchair Jung, though. He understood what women really want.

( Just kidding. No feminists were harmed in the making of this post, as far as I know.)

I read June Singer's Boundaries of the soul my senior year of high school.  It was my introduction to psychology.  Then I took psych 101, and then I was psychoanalyzed off and on by an old drunk shrink with a Santa Claus belly laugh  :laugh:  We worked on some of my daddy issues...abandonment is a bitch.  He introduced me to Ken Wilber when I was 19 and I began reading his shit.  I also got into exploring the inner realms of consciousness about this time with an introduction to the Kabbalah and the Tarot.  These things led me to lucid dreaming, astral travel, and OBE's. 

Then I got into Buddhist psychology because I became a Buddhist while training to split atoms in the USN.   

I've read a lot and thought a lot...but I'm nothing but an armchair thinker and ponderer of the human condition.  I love that we have a resident shrink though ;D


Offline RE

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Women & The Long Campout
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2014, 03:06:59 PM »
I need to take Feminazi out of my lexicon because El Rushbo uses it?  He uses Asshole a lot too, so no more Assholes either?  :icon_mrgreen:

I don't have any problem with your run of the mill Women's Libber.  It's the ones that go on and on about Patriarchy and how Men are the Root of All Evil that get the Feminazi term.

Did you go over and hang on NBL for a while?  Noooo.  Here's a typical Christy post:

Quote from: Christy
u and lidia, i am not saying patriarchy is the only evil, or necessarily the beginning of evil everywhere... i don't know how this mess all started, exactly.  but the fact of it, the known history of it and how it exists today, is glaring, is eroding women and in general eroding life because it is a culture of death, and is so obviously connected with the rise in exploitation of the earth and all nature... so, imo, we need to have a good look at these connections.

lidia, why do why have overpopulation?  do you really know?  in my view, it is the sense of separation from nature, our imaginary isolation within our minds, that leads us to create this imbalance.  and why are we separate?  i don't know the original why, but i see that all the patriarchal religions violently forced, and still enforce, this world view on the populace.

and yes u, we may all be toast soon enough, but in the meantime i want to free as many minds as possible, including my own, so i that i die free.

art, i think men do not want to talk about patriarchy because they do not want to lose the privileges it gives them.  same with women who benefit, women who get privilege, however derivatively, within this system.  and we are all conditioned from conception to believe in it, to accept it as the gospel, as reality, starting with God = male and so on.  White male, right? Even if you are not white, at least you are male, and you can lord that divine status over all women. 

Now, if this stuff only came up once in a while in a thread on the subject of Patriarchy as it does here, no problem.  However, until we dropped the SMF on there, Christy dropped in on every article comment stream and ranted on Patriarchy or some other Evil of Men.  I'm sure she still does too, despite the new forum.  It grates on you after a while, permeating the posting there, and it's not just the women, its several of the men too.

Do women avoid DD because I use Feminazi in an article?  No, because that is the first time I ever used it in an article and the first time you went Ballistic because I used it.

I think the reason DD is mainly Males is the same reason the Rewilding class Peter Michael Bauer took was all Males.  The whole living primitive thing is not too appealing to most women.  They want to give up the creature comforts of the Age of Oil even less than men do.  I am speaking generally here, not exceptional cases like GM.  No more Make-Up?  No more Spas?  No more Tampons?  ACCCKKKK!  I think many women would rather DIE before giving up these things, which explains why you find them on NBL of course.

Thinking back on all the girlfriends I had growing up, only Illuminati Spawn liked Camping.  That's a ratio of about 1:50 for 2% of the population of females.  So if we ever get 100 Active Posters, I'll figure 2 of them will be Females.  Because WTF do we talk about here?  THE LONG CAMPOUT!  Worse still, the Campout that NEVER ENDS!  The typical femalebrought up in Industrial Culture has a lot of problems with this concept.

RE
« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 03:09:19 PM by RE »
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Women and the Long Campout
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2014, 03:23:35 PM »
Those women have probably been reading Sex at Dawn which lays every problem of the last twelve thousand years at the feet of the move to Ag based societies and the all the resulting societal changes, of which number one was women and children being turned into property (along with land).

There's a lot of truth to it. However, that has nothing to do with me, personally, my relationships with the numerous women in my life, nor the price of eggs at the farmer's market. They are projecting that shit.

I strongly associate the word feminazi with Limbaugh. Maybe because I have a radio in my car. I wouldn't piss up his ass if his guts were on fire. The guy sickens me, and my knee-jerk response to avoid one of his favorite terms is just that I guess. Just like I try to avoid stepping in dog shit.

I'm guessing every man here has, or had, relationships with strong women. Reason being, weak women would be instantly crushed by the weight of our well developed male egos or soon driven to madness by our relentless left brain arguments. Only strong women are attracted to outliers.

And yeah, women like a well appointed base camp, with a few amenities.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2014, 03:26:27 PM by Eddie »
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Offline RE

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Re: Women and the Long Campout
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2014, 03:58:23 PM »
And yeah, women like a well appointed base camp, with a few amenities.

Camping for Women



Camping for Men



RE
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Women & The Long Campout
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2014, 04:01:44 PM »
Thinking back on all the girlfriends I had growing up, only Illuminati Spawn liked Camping.  That's a ratio of about 1:50 for 2% of the population of females.  So if we ever get 100 Active Posters, I'll figure 2 of them will be Females.  Because WTF do we talk about here?  THE LONG CAMPOUT!  Worse still, the Campout that NEVER ENDS!  The typical femalebrought up in Industrial Culture has a lot of problems with this concept.

RE

GM and I went backpacking in the mountains of NC for our honeymoon.  We were out in the wilderness for six days and five nights.  We even got lost on the first day because a tree had fallen and the trail wasn't maintained well enough...basically the trail disappeared.  We had to sleep in the middle of the trail because by the time I found my way back to the trail it was about 30 minutes before dark.  The last night it pissed down rain and we woke up soaked.  She had never been backpacking before...or even camping for that matter.  But she loved it just the same. 

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Women and the Long Campout
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2014, 04:04:59 PM »

I wouldn't piss up his ass if his guts were on fire. The guy sickens me, and my knee-jerk response to avoid one of his favorite terms is just that I guess. Just like I try to avoid stepping in dog shit.

I share your disdain for that dumb ass. 

However, I must point out that pissing up ones ass can only be achieved via intercourse   ;)

Homo :laugh:

Offline RE

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Re: Women & The Long Campout
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2014, 04:05:41 PM »
Thinking back on all the girlfriends I had growing up, only Illuminati Spawn liked Camping.  That's a ratio of about 1:50 for 2% of the population of females.  So if we ever get 100 Active Posters, I'll figure 2 of them will be Females.  Because WTF do we talk about here?  THE LONG CAMPOUT!  Worse still, the Campout that NEVER ENDS!  The typical femalebrought up in Industrial Culture has a lot of problems with this concept.

RE

GM and I went backpacking in the mountains of NC for our honeymoon.  We were out in the wilderness for six days and five nights.  We even got lost on the first day because a tree had fallen and the trail wasn't maintained well enough...basically the trail disappeared.  We had to sleep in the middle of the trail because by the time I found my way back to the trail it was about 30 minutes before dark.  The last night it pissed down rain and we woke up soaked.  She had never been backpacking before...or even camping for that matter.  But she loved it just the same.

Like I said, GM is an Outlier.

RE
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