AuthorTopic: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?  (Read 16227 times)

Offline g

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2015, 02:58:54 PM »

   
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Our politicians at the national level, have to be OK'd by the corporations now, to have a chance to "win".

Have you kept track of the interlocking boards of directors controlled by the big banks?  This is the development that makes a Corp/Gov  ruling council possible.

No crystal ball here GO.  Lots of ways it can work out. 

Understood Snowleopard and agreed,

My point was we have it now, and they need each other to work. I thought you were referring to the corporations changing the laws, taxes, subsidies, declaring wars etc. with a council comprised of only them, and not the puppets they grease with cash to implement their wishes.

I cannot envision the American people taking orders from a council of corporations, but obliging a puppet they think they elected is what we now enjoy in our representative democracy. Any politician trying to break the stranglehold is immediately castigated by their controlled MSM mouthpieces as a looney or demented radical as well. It's a sad and seemingly hopeless situation. Something very depressing about voting for someone who cannot win.  :-\ :-\

Offline RE

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2015, 03:41:42 PM »


RE

Economic indicator flashes blue in signal of a recession

By Enru Lin, The China Post
May 28, 2015, 12:20 am TWN
      
      
TAIPEI, Taiwan -- The National Development Council's (NDC, 國發會) economic monitoring indicator fell six points to 16 last month on the back of weak exports, flashing blue to signal a recession.

April's overall score took the light to blue for the first time since September 2012, said Wu Ming-huei (吳明蕙), director of the NDC's Economic Development Department.

The NDC uses a five-color spectrum to signal national economic health. Red warns of overheating and yellow-red of slight overheating. Green, yellow-blue and blue signal steady growth, slowdown and recession, respectively.

Wu said the NDC's March indicator score had been adjusted from 21 to 22 following a revised estimate on the producer's shipment for manufacturing.

The score fell in April primarily due to less-than-expected first-quarter global economic growth, coupled with a weakened demand for mobile devices.

The downward pressure on export orders has pushed down economic health indicators like industrial production, producer's shipments for manufacturing and the sales of trade and food services, Wu said.

Market confidence surveys indicate that the manufacturing sector has been conservative for several months, she said.

Nine Components

The NDC bases its economic monitoring indicator on nine components. In April, the subindices for industrial production, nonagricultural employment and manufacturing each lost one point to turn from green to yellow-blue.

The subindices for sales of trade and food services also shed a point to switch from yellow-blue to blue, while the producer's shipment for manufacturing subindex lost two points to go from green to blue.

From March to April, light indicators for monetary aggregates M1B, TAIEX average closing price, customs-cleared exports and imports of machineries and electrical equipment remained unchanged.

Leading and Coincident Indicators

April's score of 16 is calculated based on the leading index - which forecasts economic climate three to six months ahead - and the coincident index, which reflects current conditions.

The NDC's index of coincident indicators fell by 0.55 percentage points from March to 99.29, according to the NDC report.

Of the seven leading subindices, only electric power consumption and nonagricultural employment showed positive cyclical movement from the previous month.

The NDC's leading index stood at 97.74 in April, down by 0.58 percentage points from the previous month.

Of the seven leading subindices, semiconductor book-to-bill ratio, the TAIEX and real monetary aggregates M1B put up positive cyclical movements. Export orders, building permits, manufacturing and net employment accession rate had negative showings.
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Offline g

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2015, 04:22:46 PM »

Surly: "I doubt that anyone knows."

No, of course no one knows.


the US is still the undisputed master of advance weaponry and it's nuclear arsenal is intimidating.
True. But those nukes are a doomsday option, nothing more; i.e. they are not a real option.

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My mind instinctively tells me that those two populations cannot be sustained without walking into a brick wall of total resource depletion from everything to food, water, clean air, health, energy etc.
We could discuss each one of those things. I have discussed them to some extent throughout adjacent threads, and in the old china potpourri thread going back a few years. Most of my posts presenting real options and solutions, and effective or semi-effective initiatives underway, are ignored, or are waved-away with vague generalities and statements of religious faith. Which is OK, since I enjoyed writing the posts anyway. But just to let you know. You can verify what I say if you want to dig far enough back.

Bottom line: humanity is capable of addressing all those things. The earth is finite, but human ingenuity and industry are not. Our present civilization could be said in the year 1850 to be outright IMPOSSIBLE. At that time, we were limited to wood and coal and whale oil, and given those technologies, our current civilization really was impossible. But now it is possible. In the year 1980, the idea of using solar panels to power heavy industry seemed outright IMPOSSIBLE. Far too expensive, raw materials, fabrication costs, blah blah blah. And that assessment was true: it WAS impossible, given technologic development at that time. But now it is possible. And lots more things are becoming possible, every year. Material resources are finite, but our ability to use them in progressively smarter ways is not. There is no "brick wall".

Another way to say all this is: things change. Wonder of wonders, things change.

Humans can address all those problems. Whether they WILL or not, remains to be seen. Maybe we'll blow everything up before the problems get solved. I don't know.

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I also have a problem in this area of ashamedly having to admit I am still a peak oil adherent, even in the face of the current situation we are in. Having been convinced of this by folks like Nicole Foss, Kunstler, and of course a great many others; I think they were just early. 
Early, and now blindsided by shale gas, which is just now starting to get geared-up in Eurasia and elsewhere. As I've said repeatedly, there's a crap-load of nat gas in Eurasia, easily enough to last a century even at much accelerated rates of use. There might be some oil-crunchy things coming down the pike over the next couple decades, but nothing at all like the peak oil doomers were saying 10 years ago. There's too much of the stuff.

Another problem ("problem") is that the crashing cost of renewables is about to open up new vistas of FF retrieval. There has been concerned discussion of this on realclimate.org's forum (some very smart people, a lot smarter than me) and elsewhere. Cheap, super-high-EROI renewable power makes it possible to retrieve  FFs that would otherwise be stranded because of low EROI. And of course those FFs will be burned, releasing CO2. The future is, hence, NOT all rosy with cheap, high-EROI renewables. We have to somehow keep the damned FFs in the ground where they belong.

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My second problem is the rich poor problem that has developed in China. The poor in China, hundreds of millions alone I read that are camping out around major cities waiting for jobs an witnessing how the lucky live is a ticking time bomb the way I see it. They are not on a food stamp program like the US, getting a welfare check every month, or living in section 8 housing.
The difference is that money goes a lot farther in China than here. An annual income of $12,000 IS middle-class in China, because most things are relatively cheap. You are right that there are class-related pressures building in China. But I think maybe less than you imagine. Per capita GDP in China is a little under $8K I believe. They have a poverty rate a bit over 12%; people living on $1.25/day or less. That's a lot of people. Though consider in relation to 40 years ago: 90% poverty rate! Consider also that the large majority of people who are NOT impoverished have a stake in seeing the system continuing roughly as it is. The system is growing and giving everyone a somewhat better standard of living every year, so why not continue it?

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If the current situation can continue and be sustained somewhat like it is and these resource and rich poor problems can be solved, as Alan believes, then yes, China becomes the Boss Man.   :icon_scratch: :dontknow:
Just to back up for a moment and take a MACRO view: it really is not "China" that becomes a boss man. It is intelligence, sound leadership, good planning, boldness, efficiency in execution, wisdom in resource use, and suchlike that becomes boss man. If China has more of that stuff than others, then...

Hi Alan

Fully agree with your nuclear war statement. Unfortunately many other do not, such as the Neocons.

May I remind you we have already dropped two of these things and JFK was prepared to drop a third. My felling also is that Truman and JFK were relatively sane men compared to the Neocons.


Quote
Bottom line: humanity is capable of addressing all those things. The earth is finite, but human ingenuity and industry are not. Our present civilization could be said in the year 1850 to be outright IMPOSSIBLE. At that time, we were limited to wood and coal and whale oil, and given those technologies, our current civilization really was impossible. But now it is possible. In the year 1980, the idea of using solar panels to power heavy industry seemed outright IMPOSSIBLE. Far too expensive, raw materials, fabrication costs, blah blah blah. And that assessment was true: it WAS impossible, given technologic development at that time. But now it is possible. And lots more things are becoming possible, every year. Material resources are finite, but our ability to use them in progressively smarter ways is not. There is no "brick wall".
[/b]
I will entertain your idea that everything is possible eventually, but as stated, my feeling of an imminent financial calamity makes this a point not worth considering. we are dealing with a defined period of time and a unique stated country,China, over a stated period of time,  a century. Let's not get on the Starship Enterprise just yet and remain rooted on the ground.

My view is that your idea of this possible collapse of stock markets being nothing more than a nice healthy correction in the stock markets and that good and wonders will come out the other side of it are a pipe dream. I feel you are unaware of the fantasy and false dreams, as well as sheer foolishness that have been created by the current flight from reality of printing your dreams with fiat.




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Early, and now blindsided by shale gas, which is just now starting to get geared-up in Eurasia and elsewhere. As I've said repeatedly, there's a crap-load of nat gas in Eurasia, easily enough to last a century even at much accelerated rates of use. There might be some oil-crunchy things coming down the pike over the next couple decades, but nothing at all like the peak oil doomers were saying 10 years ago. There's too much of the stuff

My feeling is after reading this and your comments on oil that you are not aware of the true EROI nor of the financial hurdles in attaining this dream. As, stated the technology aspect is not my line, and if true, would not negate the financial calamity that I see arriving, so it is a moot point for me.


I agree that renewables are the long term future, solar a sure in my view, and it always has been my view since a child.  We do not have time to accomplish this in my view,  as I see the financial situation getting out of hand soon. No longer than five years I would guess, and that's with my fingers crossed. 

Quote Golden Oxen

 
Quote
  My second problem is the rich poor problem that has developed in China. The poor in China, hundreds of millions alone I read that are camping out around major cities waiting for jobs an witnessing how the lucky live is a ticking time bomb the way I see it. They are not on a food stamp program like the US, getting a welfare check every month, or living in section 8 housing.
Reply Alan
The difference is that money goes a lot farther in China than here. An annual income of $12,000 IS middle-class in China, because most things are relatively cheap. You are right that there are class-related pressures building in China. But I think maybe less than you imagine. Per capita GDP in China is a little under $8K I believe. They have a poverty rate a bit over 12%; people living on $1.25/day or less. That's a lot of people. Though consider in relation to 40 years ago: 90% poverty rate! Consider also that the large majority of people who are NOT impoverished have a stake in seeing the system continuing roughly as it is. The system is growing and giving everyone a somewhat better standard of living every year, so why not continue it?

It appears to me you are evading my point by introducing minutiae and meaningless statistics from half a century ago in different currencies and societies that have no relevance to the point at hand.

Let me explain again, what do you do and what happens when you have two to three hundred million people camped outside of your major cities near starving and praying eagerly for work and proper housing. As they sit there suffering they watch the others enjoying the good life that they are told is their's soon if they wait their turn and suffer a bit longer? What happens when they watch the factories go dark??

Yes, Exactly, Total Mayhem. :'(


Quote
Just to back up for a moment and take a MACRO view: it really is not "China" that becomes a boss man. It is intelligence, sound leadership, good planning, boldness, efficiency in execution, wisdom in resource use, and suchlike that becomes boss man. If China has more of that stuff than others, then...

China is a repressive dictatorship that finally was forced to adopt some principles of the capitalist system in order to feed and clothe it's billion impoverished citizens, and bring itself into the modern world. Kindly peruse again my recently posted article on China and how far it has advanced politically over the past few decades before treating the Copy Cat nation with such superlatives Alan.

Their wise enlightened leadership filled their brand new highways with more gas guzzlers than America has, and has polluted the environment in a totally irresponsible needless manner, and now Copy Cat's us with a fiat induced stock market orgy that rivals the South Sea Bubble.



« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 05:17:51 PM by Golden Oxen »

Offline RE

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2015, 04:35:06 PM »
I have said repeatedly that RE is too quick on the "toast" meme regarding China.
That's good to hear. I did not know that. Maybe I need to start changing my view of DD's view. Maybe I give R.E. too much weight. I usually hear his words and take them as APPROXIMATELY representative of DD. Maybe wrongly.

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Interesting to speculate on what the impact of their population (on about the same area as the US) will be, and on the future world economy. China's population is four times our own.
You're the 2nd on this page to make that point. But you are looking only at the borders of China, which is not the relevant thing. China is on the vast and largely unoccupied continent of EURASIA, spanning a dozen time zones. There's plenty of room to roam. There are other problems (water), but plenty of space.

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I have an agreement from Pepe Escobar to cross post his stuff. He also thinks that China will own the 21st century. RE demurs. Won't be the first time we've butted heads. Nor the last.

The fact is that i don't know. China has an immense population and potential economic impact. What will that mean? The numbers are potentially so large that they boggle the mind. Mine, at least. Will resource constraints throttle Chinese growth and keep the rail line from being built, or will the commitment to renewables jumpstart the Chinese century?
I doubt that anyone knows.

We also have an agreement from Tom Lewis to cross post.  Tom is on my side.  :icon_sunny:

See China, the Paper Tiger in the China Toast thread.

Nice timing by Tom on this one.

RE
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Offline knarf

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2015, 05:02:00 PM »
Abrupt Climate Change and The Failure of Democracy



The deadly and destructive effects of abrupt climate change continue to be felt across the planet and still the response of national governments is to do nothing except issue press releases expressing sympathy for the victims and empty promises of local aid. In India, this week, hundreds have died in extreme heat, in the southern United States, biblical rains have ruined the lives of thousands, in California and Brazil drought threatens entire continental regions. Alaska is experiencing temperatures 20 degrees Celsius above normal while in southern Ontario, in Canada, many vineyards suffered the destruction of their entire grape crop as temperatures suddenly plummeted and rainfall there is half of normal. It snowed again in Newfoundland and in New Zealand they had their largest first snowfall in decades.

In the Arctic the high temperature anomalies are causing large flows of warm, river water into the deltas that flow into the ocean from Norway to Siberia to the Yukon, warming the water and thinning the ice, now at its lowest point on record. Methane releases normally at about 1800ppb are now exceeding 2800ppb and a methane cloud has spread across the northern hemisphere. The west Antarctic ice sheet is breaking up, and faster than anyone had predicted and it and Greenland are releasing 400 billion tons of water into the oceans every year raising sea levels higher and faster, while world wide, glaciers have shrunk by 1.2 trillion tons in the past eight years.

Forest and brush fires have caused destruction from Chile to British Columbia, from Siberia to California and Australia, and now everyone hopes that the strengthening El Nino arising in the Pacific will bring enough rain to break the drought and the danger. For each fire not only destroys what’s in its path it also releases huge amounts of carbon into the atmosphere and so the heating climate provides its own means of increasing its temperature further; just one of dozens of feedback loops interacting in ways we cannot hope to fully understand, except that the combined effect is a planetary catastrophe.

Just a few months ago, in another article here, I reported the press conference called by the Arctic Methane Emergency Group at the meeting of world climate scientists and politicians in Peru to discuss the extent of climate change and solutions. None were offered and AMEG warned that if a blue ocean event happens in the Arctic then the warming in the Arctic would drive the earth’s weather and ecological systems into chaos. It could happen later this year. But even in five, the danger is upon us now. As AMEG also stated, we are in a planetary emergency-the first one ever declared. They posit that geo-engineering is feasible that could reduce global warming. Those who think it would not be effective, or even make things worse criticize their position. The debate continues. Others think, like Dr. Guy McPherson, and give compelling reasons to support their thinking, that it is far too late, and no matter what is tried, too many feedback loops are already in play, and that the certain collapse of the means of production of food, water and other resources will lead to the extinction of human kind. There will be no survivors.

Just this week documents came to light from Shell Oil stating that their scientists are sure the average global temperature will rise by not even the high 2 degrees governments now refer to as desirable, but by 4 to 6 degrees, each degree a deadly bullet into the heart of the ecosystems that allow us to exist. And where are the urgent meetings, of even enemy governments, to act, where is the urgent and patriotic hue and cry in the media that exists for the phony war on “terrorism”.

Governments are supposed to have, as their first duty, the obligation to ensure the well being of the citizens to whom they are responsible. Yet in India the poor who suffer the most have to complain to the press that nothing is done, that the suffering are on their own, and that men earning 3 dollars a day on a construction site feel compelled to keep working in 48 degrees Celsius heat, risking death because otherwise they will starve.

An article on the FirstPost website in India says the “the heat wave has reached disastrous proportions; but neither the central government nor the state governments have relief plans in place”.

“Despite its predictable, periodic incidence and high levels of mortality, governments have done precious little to mitigate its impact on people because obviously they don’t care – it’s still not considered a natural calamity,” it adds.

The website further argues that “it’s time to think about heat waves as a natural disaster and put in place both preventive and mitigatory steps”.

This is the state of the capitalist world and even the socialist world that is entrapped within its systems. No one really cares. If they did they would act to help their fellow man, to take care of us, but there is no response, none, except to say, “Stay cool.” There is no plan, nor even the sense that anyone has even begun to think of one. Governments are in the pocket of the financiers, bankers and industrialists.

They have no legitimacy under the various constitutions they are sworn to uphold because they manifestly do not undertake the duties nor shoulder the responsibilities they have to the people. In the West, the governments act in the interests of gangsters who are prepared to see people suffer so long as they can make more profit. They prefer to plant bombs, stir up wars, and frighten the people with the hobgoblins of “terrorism” in order to obscure reality from the people.

But in their pretence to be “of the people and for the people” even gangsters will try to earn some other respect than that drawn by fear, and will occasionally throw the peasants something.

It flatters their vanity and gives them something to talk about at their country clubs and intergovernmental, intercorporate meetings where no doubt lots of crocodile tears are shed. And so they sometimes take small actions to appear that they are responding. But the response is always piecemeal and always in reaction to a specific event, this flood, that storm, though occasionally, a high potentate, like President Obama, will even acknowledge that climate change “is a concern” for the “national security.” But most of the money is still thrown away on arms and wars generated by the same financiers, bankers and industrialists.

We are warned that, at the latest, the earth systems that support human kind will collapse in a century and, some, such as Guy McPherson, think as soon as 2030-40, only a few years from now. Either estimate is a flick of eyelid. It will affect everyone. There will be no survivors if they are right and it looks more and more compellingly that they are.

Civilization is at a crisis. George Monbiot recently, in the Guardian, drew attention to the fact that one factor in the Syrian war is the multi-year drought that has caused severe problems for the population and the nation and government. We are seeing similar effects in other regions from Mexico to China, and the oceans are casting their dead all along our coasts.

Yet, there is no mechanism by which the peoples of the world can force their governments to undertake their true obligations and responsibilities. And we have to face the fact that the peoples of the world have been successfully divided into nations and sub-nations, their common brotherhood buried under banners of nationalism and chauvinism, of “exceptionalism” and atomised into billions of particles all told to think of only themselves, not the other, and that vanity and ignorance are virtues, and that to have is better than to be.

Where in the West is the social contract that Jean Jacques Rousseau claimed united us all in common purpose and gave legitimacy to government? Where are the ideals of the great revolutions, the English, the French the great Russian and Chinese revolutions that succeeded, each one, in further emancipating the workers, the peasants, the artists, and intellectuals, so they had a fairer share of the wealth of their nations and more equality and justice before the law.

But even in the socialist world, though things are done to try to limit pollution and reduce carbon in the atmosphere, as we see with China’s tree planting program, and carbon sequestration initiatives, they are still locked into a predominantly capitalist, for profit world, there still seems no urgency, and the leaders talk in terms of decades instead of months.

This begs the question can democracy really exist in nations of tens of and hundreds of millions of people? What is this democracy? Here in Canada I am opposed to the new secret security laws just put in place by the right wing government. I have never voted for the party in power. Everyone I know opposes these laws. Yet the laws are in place, so that now a few can arrest the many for their own interests, and call it “legal”. Is this democracy? They tell me it is.

So, we are in a very bad situation, but I don’t see anything being done about it. Civilisation has reached a point at which its social, economic, and political systems no longer function, except in a generally destructive way. And still people are collapsing from the heat in India, or drowning in Texas, while we watch it, like a cheap TV entertainment, a macabre reality show. But, be warned. Soon it will be you and me.

http://journal-neo.org/2015/06/08/abrupt-climate-change-and-the-failure-of-democracy/
NECROCAPITALISM at http://openmind693.wordpress.com ‘Rolling thunder. Shock. A noble one in fear and dread sets things in order and is watchful.’ I-Ching (Hex.51)

Offline Surly1

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2015, 05:04:54 PM »
I have said repeatedly that RE is too quick on the "toast" meme regarding China.
That's good to hear. I did not know that. Maybe I need to start changing my view of DD's view. Maybe I give R.E. too much weight. I usually hear his words and take them as APPROXIMATELY representative of DD. Maybe wrongly.

Quote
Interesting to speculate on what the impact of their population (on about the same area as the US) will be, and on the future world economy. China's population is four times our own.
You're the 2nd on this page to make that point. But you are looking only at the borders of China, which is not the relevant thing. China is on the vast and largely unoccupied continent of EURASIA, spanning a dozen time zones. There's plenty of room to roam. There are other problems (water), but plenty of space.

Quote

I have an agreement from Pepe Escobar to cross post his stuff. He also thinks that China will own the 21st century. RE demurs. Won't be the first time we've butted heads. Nor the last.

The fact is that i don't know. China has an immense population and potential economic impact. What will that mean? The numbers are potentially so large that they boggle the mind. Mine, at least. Will resource constraints throttle Chinese growth and keep the rail line from being built, or will the commitment to renewables jumpstart the Chinese century?
I doubt that anyone knows.

We also have an agreement from Tom Lewis to cross post.  Tom is on my side.  :icon_sunny:

See China, the Paper Tiger in the China Toast thread.

Nice timing by Tom on this one.

RE

Good article. But based on a handful of selected instances. Here's a counter-argument:

Try this:
http://www.salon.com/2010/12/06/america_collapse_2025/

Quote
Future historians are likely to identify the Bush administration’s rash invasion of Iraq in that year as the start of America’s downfall. However, instead of the bloodshed that marked the end of so many past empires, with cities burning and civilians slaughtered, this twenty-first century imperial collapse could come relatively quietly through the invisible tendrils of economic collapse or cyberwarfare.

But have no doubt: when Washington’s global dominion finally ends, there will be painful daily reminders of what such a loss of power means for Americans in every walk of life. As a half-dozen European nations have discovered, imperial decline tends to have a remarkably demoralizing impact on a society, regularly bringing at least a generation of economic privation. As the economy cools, political temperatures rise, often sparking serious domestic unrest.

Quote
Today, three main threats exist to America’s dominant position in the global economy:
  • loss of economic clout thanks to a shrinking share of world trade,
  • the decline of American technological innovation,
  • and the end of the dollar’s privileged status as the global reserve currency.

The article paints a grim picture. Our children and grandchildren can inhabit a Planet of Slums,with a billion people already packed into fetid favelas that will be “the ‘feral, failed cities’ of the Third World…

My point is simply that two can play that game.

I sincerely hope that saner heads prevail. But I share GO's distrust of the neocon jingoes who have hold of the tiller of state, and of the foreign policy if the USA. As I have said elsewhere, they will fight the next war down to your last child and/or grandchild.
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Offline RE

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2015, 05:11:47 PM »

Good article. But based on a handful of selected instances.

That was a handful of selected instances from just the last WEEK.  Go back a month and you can find them by the truckload.

Granted, you'll also find plenty of China Bull stories also, and Ambrose will write both sides from one article to the next too!  LOL.

However, it's like with Climate Change, there also are plenty of articles denying that also.  You have to parse it and decide which argument makes more CFS.

RE
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2015, 05:19:40 PM »
GO i just want to add to your point about 2.5 billion people in india and china,  add other neighboring countries like phillipines islands almost 100 million,  indonesian archipeligo 250 million.. malaysia... singapore.. vietnam burma. Laos ..canbodia. bangladesh.. they  Make over  half the people in the world All in asia. Many work in various wealthy countries as cheap slave labour and domestic helpers etc with food and board provided and send most of the money they make home to feed their family. I see those jobs drying up  as low oil prices hurt the oil exporting places and financial centres are not far behind. Add to this the problem of simultaneous flood and drought in so many places including usa,  qld,  and these asians.
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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2015, 05:41:38 PM »

   
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Our politicians at the national level, have to be OK'd by the corporations now, to have a chance to "win".

Have you kept track of the interlocking boards of directors controlled by the big banks?  This is the development that makes a Corp/Gov  ruling council possible.

No crystal ball here GO.  Lots of ways it can work out. 

Understood Snowleopard and agreed,

My point was we have it now, and they need each other to work. I thought you were referring to the corporations changing the laws, taxes, subsidies, declaring wars etc. with a council comprised of only them, and not the puppets they grease with cash to implement their wishes.

I cannot envision the American people taking orders from a council of corporations, but obliging a puppet they think they elected is what we now enjoy in our representative democracy. Any politician trying to break the stranglehold is immediately castigated by their controlled MSM mouthpieces as a looney or demented radical as well. It's a sad and seemingly hopeless situation. Something very depressing about voting for someone who cannot win.  :-\ :-\

Yes we have most of it now.  The CIA controls the media for TPTB and determines who is perceived as electable. The vote counters ensure that perception becomes reality.  They'd rather not have any more JFKs

To speculate further:

The change(s) amount(s) to reducing overhead while squeezing more from the serfs.

I doubt the coming financial crisis will be enough.  The puppets likely stay until a further major crisis can be used to eliminate them, or make them mostly ceremonial;  perhaps after a manufactured WWIII threat, as part of a world peace treaty??  Maybe subjugated to Corps as enforcers of a world climate treaty to control individual, company and government energy use, except for the enforcing major international corps?? 

Currently TPP seeks to give the major corps some immunity from the puppet show.  Likely more steps will follow.

 Yes USA citizens, notwithstanding decadence, dumbing down, and numb acceptance of police tactics after the Boston bombing approaching defacto marshall law, will probably resist to some extent.  Likely some shock and awe show is planned for that to ramp up acceptance of authority another notch or three. 
"A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest." -  Simon and Garfunkel

Offline g

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2015, 05:43:17 PM »
GO i just want to add to your point about 2.5 billion people in india and china,  add other neighboring countries like phillipines islands almost 100 million,  indonesian archipeligo 250 million.. malaysia... singapore.. vietnam burma. Laos ..canbodia. bangladesh.. they  Make over  half the people in the world All in asia. Many work in various wealthy countries as cheap slave labour and domestic helpers etc with food and board provided and send most of the money they make home to feed their family. I see those jobs drying up  as low oil prices hurt the oil exporting places and financial centres are not far behind. Add to this the problem of simultaneous flood and drought in so many places including usa,  qld,  and these asians.

Thanks Unc and understood. Why India and it's billion citizens as well as the others you mention are always left out of these discussions is amazing to me, especially when the folks discussing the matter are concerned with scarce resources and environmental as well as economic problems.

Unc, I live in total fear and constant dread of this financial bubble bursting because of the economic interdependence that has come about in the last two decades. Thanks for pointing out how truly dependent we all are on each other in today's world, few it seems understand it, and the horrors that will come to so many people. I like Alan and he brings a positive spin to the table, but his ideas of a back up here being healthy and the pause that refreshes are way off base in my view. It will be misery on steroids for billions of folks, and will not be at all pleasant, as it happens, or the aftermath, as I surmise it.  :'(

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2015, 06:13:47 PM »
Quote
Yes USA citizens, notwithstanding decadence, dumbing down, and numb acceptance of police tactics after the Boston bombing approaching defacto marshall law,

Yes Snow, I lived it. Let me assure you it was Martial Law. My wife couldn't even leave work and come home until getting permission.

Sad to relate to you that the people enjoyed the martial law. They felt important, part of something big, wanted to be good and obedient.

Remarked to a neighbor of mine that it appeared like overkill to me to lock down a major city to go after two people." Whadda You Mean"he said to me, "Their Terrorists". I shut my yap right up and went back into the house scared the silly twit would turn me in or something.

Then the Feds with all the the damned letters for names showed up and infested the area swaggering around with guns and uniforms, what a sight. The serfs were giving them the thumbs up and smiling at them like they were troops freeing them from a concentration camp. They don't need any more false flags now Snow, they will give up their freedom in a second and feel all good and smart about it.

Still don't know who frightened me most Snow, the Feds or the Citizens.

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2015, 10:46:17 PM »
Our present civilization could be said in the year 1850 to be outright IMPOSSIBLE.
... and indeed it WAS (effectively) SAID to be impossible by Malthusians, notably by Rev Malthus himself. Malthus predicted that population overshoot would create impossible resource shortages resulting in mass dieoff (sound familiar?).  That's what he said over 200 years ago.
You sure about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus

Malthus wasn't wrong, he was misunderstood.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline RE

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Malthus was RIGHT! (timeline was off though)
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2015, 11:17:04 PM »
Our present civilization could be said in the year 1850 to be outright IMPOSSIBLE.
... and indeed it WAS (effectively) SAID to be impossible by Malthusians, notably by Rev Malthus himself. Malthus predicted that population overshoot would create impossible resource shortages resulting in mass dieoff (sound familiar?).  That's what he said over 200 years ago.
You sure about that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Robert_Malthus

Malthus wasn't wrong, he was misunderstood.

He wasn't wrong, his timeline was just off.

Malthus did not anticipate the extraction of millions of years of Fossil Fuel energy collection from EZ to get at reservoirs.

This extended out the timeline and vastly increased the total carrying capacity for Homo Sap while said EZ to access energy was available.

Take away that energy, you just can't support so many people.  Even best estimates for Solar and other Renewables will not bring in near the energy per capita that fossil fuels currently do.

This doesn't even take into account the climate issues, soil depletion, mineral depletion for stuff like Phosphorus etc.

Got a Perfect Storm brewing here now.

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Offline Palloy

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2015, 11:25:34 PM »
Malthus used extremely sloppy arguments in his thinking - "it is more than anyone could imagine that we could double the amount of land farmed" and so on.  Well things did happen that were more than anyone could imagine, but we then found ourselves facing exactly the same predicament.  We went from wood to coal, and coal to oil and gas, and if we were to find a new energy source with a better ERoEI, then we would switch to it quickly and do things we cannot imagine now.  But there is no such energy source. That's why we're fucked.

Allan thinks renewables have very high ERoEI, but he is wrong - fooled by the people who are trying to profit from renewables.  The ERoEI when calculated properly, taking EVERY energy expediture into account, including the fences and security systems you have to put around your solar farm to stop criminals from stealing the panels, and the energy cost of mowing the grass between the panels,  leads to an ERoEI between 2.5 and 3 (Prieto and Hall).  Wind in windy locations is much better, although there are not many places like that.  But governments haven't even begun to look at things through the energy prism yet.  "Solar panels are clean and green" is as far as they've got.  And in Brazil they are cutting down swathes of rainforest to make charcoal to smelt iron ore, FCS.  And in Indonesia they are not even doing that with the rainforests they are cutting down for oil palm, which is then exported to Europe to be burnt in cars going to the shops.

Aaaaagh, stop me !!

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Re: Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?
« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2015, 12:11:19 AM »
Aaaaagh, stop me !!

Why? You're on a roll here.  :icon_mrgreen:

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