AuthorTopic: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?  (Read 7277 times)

Offline Eddie

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Fact: As gold and silver prices have fallen over the past few years, savers (not investors...there is a difference) have continued to plow more and more fiat dollars into coins and other forms of bullion.

So why? Are people just stupid? Are they being gamed by gold and silver dealers and producers, who do constantly talk their book online? Do they all expect some turnaround that will take gold back above $2000/oz and silver above $50/oz?

No doubt there are a few people out there who are speculating in that way. But it appears to me that those people and that kind of outlook are rare in a market where price has declined steadily for five years and looks to keep declining.

So why? There has to be a reason.

I think it's confidence. Or more correctly a LACK of confidence in both the USD and the Euro. There is a small but growing contingent of people who understand that our currency rests on a foundation that is deeply rotted. That our whole economic system, totally dependent on year-over-year growth in corporate profits, into infinity, is deeply flawed.

Our surpluses have all turned into deficits. On a deep level, most thinking people understand that you can't get something for nothing... .that somebody pays for every so-called free lunch, sometime, somewhere.

It is debatable as to why precious metals have declined in price. It is true that there are very powerful deflationary forces at work. It's also true that central bankers have understood for a generation that paper markets are very easily manipulated. Governments have the power to allow that to take place legally, and they can look other other way when it's done illegally and unethically by these behemoth financial institutions.

After years of my own personal study of these markets...after reading thousands of pages of commentary, I believe that a cogent argument can be made that gold, especially, should not behave like a common commodity. I say this because the law of supply and demand supports that view, not because of any personal sentiment of mine.

Yet, for years now, gold has been behaving exactly like copper, or nickel, or lead. I think in a fair market that would not be true. I think price has been, and is controlled, for one reason or another, by one entity or another. or multiple entities working in concert.

The demand for physical is the "tell" here. Right now if you order a few gold coins and a few silver coins or a few bars, it will take you a month or so to get them from most dealers. Premiums over spot price are at near record highs.

This seems to be because the available supply of bullion for those who buy in tonnage, like foreign central banks and sovereign wealth funds, has been now depleted to a level that will approach zero (at current price levels) within one year.

The combination of these factors is ominous. The demand for coins means that many thousands of ordinary citizens are already losing faith in the fiat dollar. The steepening curve of demand for physical over time would be worrisome by itself, but in a time of falling prices it's even more scary.

The ever increasing leverage of the paper markets, and the continued movement of large quantities from West to East, and the dwindling supply of available gold from the bullion banks themselves means that something has to happen. Either price will go up, or the supply of physical metal will dry up completely.

Nicole Foss has said for years now that a time is coming when ordinary indioviduals may not be able to buy gold at all. It appears to me that this may not be too far in the future.

I'm not a devotee of Eric Sprott, but this article shows what I'm talking about as far as demand for coins. This article is about silver, but the same kind of graph could be drawn with gold.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-07/record-silver-coin-demand-signals-financial-trouble-ahead
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 04:23:42 PM by Eddie »
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Offline RE

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Obviously, it means there is a currency crisis in progress.

Because of it's traditional role as a store of wealth, people who sense that the currency of the realm (whatever that might be) is going south, they pile into Gold.  However, you depend on any number of things here in terms of retaining it when the currency does completely collapse.  Goobermint Confiscation a la FDR for one and some surplus of goods to buy with it in the aftermath of the currency collapse for another, and of course thievery once somebody smells that you do have some of it.

Take your Venezuelans for instance.  A Venezuelan with a gold wedding ring cannot use it to buy a roll of toilet paper, there is no toilet paper to buy in Venezuela.  Well, there is some, but it is rationed and there are long lines to get your weekly roll.  It's being rationed by Da Goobermint, and maybe you can bribe the distributor to give you an extra roll or two if you offer him your Gold Wedding ring, but if you originally paid say $500 for this gold ring, those were two mighty expensive rolls of TP.

Now, if you are able to "ride out the storm" in some way with your Gold buried somewhere, once  a new currency regime and rule of law is back in place, you might be then able to use the Gold to get a decent amount of the new currency.  However, how do you ride out the storm first of all, and second what if the storm is never ending, at least as far as your lifespan is concerned?

That is the problem I see here, which is why "this time is really different".  I don't think Gold will be very fungible once the dollar collapses.  It will be like owning a Porche when nobody is buying Porches anymore, or a McMansion when nobody is buying McMansions.  It's a Liquidity Trap & Asset Class Sinkhole.

If you watched the last vidcast we did with Nicole, while she also sees the current currency regime going south, she doesn't see Gold as a very good store of value in this type of situation.

RE
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Offline Eddie

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In my opinion there are no stellar choices. So you do more than one thing.

 When real consumer price deflation hits, most of the things we all know are valuable will go DOWN in price. Including beans and bullets. But if you have no money, you can't buy any of them. You could go to all cash (fiat). But if confidence in fiat is truly lost, I'll take gold and/or silver over  most other possibles. I do not foresee a future where gold is a completely stranded asset. Not ever.

You are right that you won't be able to use it to buy food. You need to have your food situation in hand, whatever that means for you.

Deleveraging debt is probably more important than acquiring gold...but it depends. Is the debt collateralized? What is the collateral? Is the interest rate on the debt fixed at low rates? What is your income/debt service (monthly payment) ratio? Not everyone can or should be debt free, necessarily. But floating rate commercial loans....bad. Variable rate mortgage...bad. High interest credit card debt...bad. The most important thing is to be able to service any remaining debt easily, possibly without one's normal income, for some time.

My reason for writing that little piece is not that my underlying POV has changed, but that the measurable data suggests that a more serious quantum shift is coming sooner than I had previously anticipated.

Obviously, it means there is a currency crisis in progress.


Maybe not completely obvious, but discernible to those with critical thinking skills. And not only a currency crisis, but one that is picking up speed at a pretty good rate now.





« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 12:17:30 PM by Eddie »
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Offline MKing

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Fact: As gold and silver prices have fallen over the past few years, savers (not investors...there is a difference) have continued to plow more and more fiat dollars into coins and other forms of bullion.

So why? Are people just stupid? Are they being gamed by gold and silver dealers and producers, who do constantly talk their book online? Do they all expect some turnaround that will take gold back above $2000/oz and silver above $50/oz?

No doubt there are a few people out there who are speculating in that way. But it appears to me that those people and that kind of outlook are rare in a market where price has declined steadily for five years and looks to keep declining.

So why? There has to be a reason.

Sure. According to GO, they are investing on a 4000 year time line. There is no requirement that investors be SMART, as gold so ably has demonstrated in the past.

Quote from: Eddie
It is debatable as to why precious metals have declined in price.

True. But not that they HAVE...much to the chagrin of GO.

Quote from: Eddie
It is true that there are very powerful deflationary forces at work.

..and mostly invisible to the likes of the average joe....and the ones that aren't invisible are GREAT!!!!

ROAD TRIP!!

Quote from: Eddie
After years of my own personal study of these markets...after reading thousands of pages of commentary, I believe that a cogent argument can be made that gold, especially, should not behave like a common commodity. I say this because the law of supply and demand supports that view, not because of any personal sentiment of mine.

Empirical evidence of it NOT working the way you want being discounted...why?

Quote from: Eddie
Yet, for years now, gold has been behaving exactly like copper, or nickel, or lead.

Empirical evidence...behaving just as other commodities.......been doing it forever...yes...when they behave as economists expect them to.. the actual experts in the field must be wrong!! Sounds like the angle the peak oilers always use against me...well...did...until I was proven right and now they can't do anything but the usual banning and censoring...showing how far intellectual honesty goes in the doomer community.

Quote from: Eddie
The combination of these factors is ominous. The demand for coins means that many thousands of ordinary citizens are already losing faith in the fiat dollar. The steepening curve of demand for physical over time would be worrisome by itself, but in a time of falling prices it's even more scary.

Sounds like what happened in the early 80's when I was involved in my only gold investing. Ominous then became a market run that buried gold like a cat does its poop. Why are you scared anyway? You have a bunch in the gold market?

Quote from: Eddie
Nicole Foss has said for years now that a time is coming when ordinary indioviduals may not be able to buy gold at all. It appears to me that this may not be too far in the future.

Nicole Foss has been WRONG for years is another way of putting it. Like peak oilers. You are aware of how uni-directional predictions, much like a broken clock being accidentally right twice a day, is nothing more than the sign of someone without the ability to LEARN, and if they are right, it is only under the "broken clock" scenario?
Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
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Offline MKing

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The most important thing is to be able to service any remaining debt easily, possibly without one's normal income, for some time.

An amusing scenario for the majority that live paycheck to paycheck, doncha think?

Quote from: Eddie
My reason for writing that little piece is not that my underlying POV has changed, but that the measurable data suggests that a more serious quantum shift is coming sooner than I had previously anticipated.

Obviously, it means there is a currency crisis in progress.


Maybe not completely obvious, but discernible to those with critical thinking skills. And not only a currency crisis, but one that is picking up speed at a pretty good rate now.

Critical thinking skills applied by amateurs gave us peak oil. In 1990. Energy crisis...right before the Asian flu dropped prices to another low. Proclaimed the world was ending in 2008, and RE thinking martial law was about to be declared. That gold was running out in the early 1980's, when the real value of it hit what...$1900 in 2015 dollars? And that is if you believe the CPI, shadow stats would put it at $4000 or so I believe. And it is actually what? $1070? It would HAVE to increase exponentially to even get back to what it was in the early 80's when I thought gold was worth having some of.

Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline RE

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Well, I think being out of debt comes before just about everything else except food & shelter.  We'll assume you can still get relatively free water, though that is becoming less true all the time.

Besides having my Nest Egg, what saved me in my 9 months with no income was the fact I have no debt and no bills to pay other than those I accrue on a monthly basis, which themselves can be cut if things get real tight.  As you all know watching the vids, I wear 2 layers of sweats around the digs in the winter all the time.  Why?  Because I keep the heat as low as possible.  Last winter, I averaged $35/mo on my Gas bill.  I never have more than 2 lights on at a time, and I use the most energy efficient bulbs I can find at the lowest wattages.  If I need real bright spot light for some purpose, I use my 350 Lumen Nebo Red.  Result?  My monthly electric bill usually comes in under $25.  For transportation, I only use the SUV when necessary, and even with the cold and snow I think I can make it through to spring on one tank of gas.  Rest of the time the Ewz gets me around.

So IMHO, even if you have a good income, it behooves you to cut your expenses to the bone and learn to live as cheap as possible.  Get rid of as many bills as you can, and those that are necessary, cut them to the bone.  Always work in surplus, take on no debt.  I have never been in a dime of debt since just before I went out trucking when I was dead broke and declared Bankruptcy.  I had NOTHING besides my old Toyota, and they couldn't take that from me in Chapter 7, and besides the Banksters didn't even show up in court.  I was in and out of the courtroom in 5 minutes and out from under about $30K in Credit Card debt I had accumulated.  I was a clean slate, and I vowed never to go into debt again for anything, and I never have since.  Everything I have bought for the last 25 years has been for CASH.  As a result, I have a horrible credit rating.  LOL.

Now, once you are outta debt and running a surplus every month (even a small one at a low income), what to do with that surplus?  Again here, you take care of the basics first, emergency food & shelter.  That's why I spent some of the money I am such a cheapskate with to buy the bugout machine and all the food preps.  But of course, you can only spend so much this way, more than 2 years worth of food preps is a waste of time, even if you managed to hold on to them though the period, all you did was stretch out the death sentence.

So now if you are still in surplus and have the CASH, you can think about buying some land, but again, never with debt, you own it free and clear with the exception of course of the taxes.  Once you buy anything with debt, if asset values crash you are fucked.  Anybody who watched the RE market nosedive in 2008-9 knows how that one goes.  If you have a non-recourse mortgage, you MIGHT be able to get out from under by sending in the Jingle Mail, but in most cases the Banksters will find a way to come after your other assets whatever they might be.

So, OK, now you are getting into the territory of the Well-to-do, if not Rich because you have enough income to cover all daily needs with cash, 2 years of food preps with cash AND you own property you bought with CASH. NO DEBT!  Can I say that again?  NO DEBT!

You still have improvements to do on this property though, gotta have those Solar PV panels and Batts of course.  If you are starting to reach your limit of surplus, which comes first the Solar PV setup or 5 1 oz Kruggerands?  I'll go with the Solar PV setup here, your mileage may vary.

OK, so you bought the Solar PV setup, but you are STILL in surplus and 100% out of debt!  WTF to do with your excess FRNs now?  I would probably invest the money first in Improvements to the Doomstead, put up a Monolithic Dome, Greenhouse, etc.  OK, I got that done, I'm still in surplus and still no debt and I still have FRNs burning a hole in my pocket...what next?  Is it now time to take the surplus and buy some Amerikan Eagles?

No...not yet, because I still have my boat to buy, at least one big enough to do some coastal fishing if not go blue water sailing for New Zealand.  I still have weapons and other defensive items to buy.  A good fencing setup with proximity alarms and monitoring cameras would be a good purchase at this time.

I could go on with this forever, but you should get the point.  Unless you are HUGELY into surplus and 100% debt free and all your other bases are covered, it is still not time yet to buy gold as a hedge.  So many other things come before it.

RE
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Offline K-Dog

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Yes there are plenty of things to buy which will remain valuable as trade items before gold should be considered.  A few bullets will buy a post collapse deer burger at the local hovel a lot easier than a few grains of gold dust will.  When gold was used on the American frontier there was a mining infrastructure which made it worth while for merchants to have scales so it could be weighed.  Considering the value gold has now only electronic scales could measure the tiny quantities which would be used for day to day purchases.  Electric scales require batteries or an AC adapter.  Consequently electric scales won't have power after the fat lady sings.  Gold bugs will starve.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 01:31:07 PM by K-Dog »
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Offline Eddie

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So now if you are still in surplus and have the CASH, you can think about buying some land, but again, never with debt, you own it free and clear with the exception of course of the taxes.  Once you buy anything with debt, if asset values crash you are fucked.  Anybody who watched the RE market nosedive in 2008-9 knows how that one goes.  If you have a non-recourse mortgage, you MIGHT be able to get out from under by sending in the Jingle Mail, but in most cases the Banksters will find a way to come after your other assets whatever they might be.

Your views are heavily influenced by your experience with bankruptcy, as are mine. But in my bankruptcy, I was forced to pay all my creditors 100% and thousands to the BR judge. So I was in true austerity for five long years and I know now what it's like to live really cheap (first as a broke student for well over a decade, and then again as I worked off an extra 120K over five extremely lean years while we were raising four kids and continued to pay a big mortgage and a car payment.)

My truth is that almost nobody can put together money to buy land for cash, especially if they are raising a family. So I think it's a necessary evil to have a mortgage. You just have to be careful about not getting over-leveraged.

I have a plan for financial triage, always. What to keep no matter what. What to sell if I can. What to walk away from. You need to have ample  cash reserves as long as cash is relevant.

Owning real estate incurs taxes, but it can also be used to effectively as a tax dodge, and to delay certain taxes indefinitely, and it can  be a valuable source of income. Leverage is a valuable but difficult-to-manage tool. Some people are conservative and use it to good advantage. Many people get over-leveraged and lose their ass.

I don't agree that metals should be last on the list. It should not come before the basic preps though. I agree with you there.

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Offline MKing

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Yes there are plenty of things to buy which will remain valuable as trade items before gold should be considered.  A few bullets will buy a post collapse deer burger at the local hovel a lot easier than a few grains of gold dust will. 

Says who? All of those who have experience with post collapse...in other words...no one?

In the poverty stricken valleys and hills of the Appalachian basin, the closest thing to real subsistence living as exists in this country, even the hillbilly aren't so hard up that they trade a few bullets for a beer burger, unless they use the BULLET (singular) to generate a month's worth of meat.

And they don't worry about collecting gold much, and wouldn't necessarily take any in trade for moonshine which they do collect and value.

Quote from: K-Dog
Electric scales require batteries or an AC adapter.  Consequently electric scales won't have power after the fat lady sings.  Gold bugs will starve.

Gold bugs are modern well off folks pretending they have ANY ability to survive a REAL collapse, non the intellectual masturbation the web seems to provide because it really doesn't want to face the real collapse that will arrive one day, and neither gold nor being debt free nor your tomato plants will save you from.

From those with perspective, to those constantly proving they lack it.

Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
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Offline Eddie

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Empirical evidence...behaving just as other commodities.......been doing it forever...yes...when they behave as economists expect them to.. the actual experts in the field must be wrong!! Sounds like the angle the peak oilers always use against me...well...did...until I was proven right and now they can't do anything but the usual banning and censoring...showing how far intellectual honesty goes in the doomer community.


I think you're deliberately missing my point. The thing I'm worried about here is not the price of gold and silver. I'm worried about the stability of my savings. The rush by small savers into bullion at a time when price is in the toilet is counterintuitive, and therefore deserves some scrutiny, to see if it's telling us something important.

Critical thinking skills applied by amateurs gave us peak oil. In 1990. Energy crisis...right before the Asian flu dropped prices to another low. Proclaimed the world was ending in 2008, and RE thinking martial law was about to be declared. That gold was running out in the early 1980's, when the real value of it hit what...$1900 in 2015 dollars? And that is if you believe the CPI, shadow stats would put it at $4000 or so I believe. And it is actually what? $1070? It would HAVE to increase exponentially to even get back to what it was in the early 80's when I thought gold was worth having some of.


When it comes to predicting the future, we're all amateurs. Sure, some peak oilers were way off. So what?

I think you probably are familiar with Gresham's Law. My thesis is that gold is leaving this country forever and not coming back, and that's Gresham's Law in action. At some point, and I'm not sure when, that'll affect the buying power of our savings, yours and mine. I used to think that was so far in the future it would not impact me in my lifetime. What I wrote is just a suggestion that it might be quite close. I think we'll see, within a period of time shorter than the time we been wasting time shooting the breeze with each other. And if that is true, I'd like to know what I can do about it. That's what's driving my inquiry.

Nicole Foss has been WRONG for years is another way of putting it. Like peak oilers. You are aware of how uni-directional predictions, much like a broken clock being accidentally right twice a day, is nothing more than the sign of someone without the ability to LEARN, and if they are right, it is only under the "broken clock" scenario?

I don't agree about Nicole. I think she is substantially right. Perhaps not about every detail, but I've seen much of what she was predicting 4 or 5 years ago come to pass. And I think we are flirting with a deflationary collapse. My biggest fear is that the people who pay me for my services will end up too broke to keep me solvent. I certainly hope that won't happen, but I can't rule it out. If I weren't worried about that, or about my cash savings possibly being devalued 10X or 100X, I wouldn't be writing this stuff.






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Offline RE

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2015, 04:37:12 PM »
My biggest fear is that the people who pay me for my services will end up too broke to keep me solvent. I certainly hope that won't happen, but I can't rule it out. If I weren't worried about that, or about my cash savings possibly being devalued 10X or 100X, I wouldn't be writing this stuff.

That's why the BEST protection is to cut your expenses to the BONE!  You want to need as little money as possible to operate (aka keep living).  Anything that you can do to reduce expenses is better than trying to save more money to cover high expenses.

Be beholden to no man.  Never a borrower or lender be.

To the best of your ability, remove yourself from the money economy.  Money is the ROOT of all Evil, and it doth corrupt the souls of men.  Covet it not, and seek it not, for it will destroy your soul.  He who worships the Golden Calf cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only buy the keys to Eternal Damnation in the Fire & Brimstone of Hell.


re
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Offline MKing

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2015, 05:04:25 PM »
Empirical evidence...behaving just as other commodities.......been doing it forever...yes...when they behave as economists expect them to.. the actual experts in the field must be wrong!! Sounds like the angle the peak oilers always use against me...well...did...until I was proven right and now they can't do anything but the usual banning and censoring...showing how far intellectual honesty goes in the doomer community.


I think you're deliberately missing my point. The thing I'm worried about here is not the price of gold and silver. I'm worried about the stability of my savings.

Who isn't? I thought your savings were wrapped up mostly in a real estate/slum lord configuration? So if your gold suddenly is worth more..you win! If it is suddenly worth less...you still have the real estate/rental market cornered producing cold, hard..CASH?

Quote from: Eddie
Critical thinking skills applied by amateurs gave us peak oil. In 1990. Energy crisis...right before the Asian flu dropped prices to another low. Proclaimed the world was ending in 2008, and RE thinking martial law was about to be declared. That gold was running out in the early 1980's, when the real value of it hit what...$1900 in 2015 dollars? And that is if you believe the CPI, shadow stats would put it at $4000 or so I believe. And it is actually what? $1070? It would HAVE to increase exponentially to even get back to what it was in the early 80's when I thought gold was worth having some of.


When it comes to predicting the future, we're all amateurs. Sure, some peak oilers were way off. So what?

They continue to act as though the magnitude of their incompetence shouldn't be held against them. You kill a couple of your patients while doing a root canal, and you think that everyone else says "so what" when they are deciding to ever let you touch them with a drill again?

Quote from: Eddie
I think you probably are familiar with Gresham's Law. My thesis is that gold is leaving this country forever and not coming back, and that's Gresham's Law in action. At some point, and I'm not sure when, that'll affect the buying power of our savings, yours and mine.

That is called inflation, the way you describing it, the devaluation of our fiat investments. It has been going on as long as ridiculous claims of deflation by the likes of Foss have been wrong, and it is why you should have taken your wife's advice way back when, because I can take a pretty big hit on the value of my savings before I arrive only back at 2009. A 6 year return roll back isn't a big deal, unless you are retiring tomorrow with no opportunity to gain it back.

And you've already said you have no intention of stopping early to smell the flowers, so you are concerned about something that you have already said is probably irrelevant to your lifestyle. So why are the fear?

Quote from: Eddie
I used to think that was so far in the future it would not impact me in my lifetime. What I wrote is just a suggestion that it might be quite close. I think we'll see, within a period of time shorter than the time we been wasting time shooting the breeze with each other. And if that is true, I'd like to know what I can do about it. That's what's driving my inquiry.

According to your last plan, you sounded like you are working till you die, or close to it (statistically speaking), so unless you think gold valuations are going to stop people from bringing you their hard earned cash for root canals, or they stop paying the rents you demand from working folk all at once, none of this really should bother you at all.

Quote from: Eddie
Nicole Foss has been WRONG for years is another way of putting it. Like peak oilers. You are aware of how uni-directional predictions, much like a broken clock being accidentally right twice a day, is nothing more than the sign of someone without the ability to LEARN, and if they are right, it is only under the "broken clock" scenario?

I don't agree about Nicole. I think she is substantially right.

You speculate in PM value. Blue Collar Joe Average does not, and would LOVE to see deflation show up in his food bill, electricity bill, car payments, medical care, education costs, taxes, and all the thing that HE worries about..not whether or not a bankster is going to lose their shirt because they loaned money to an oil company that doesn't know DICK about low cost operations.

Quote from: Eddie
Perhaps not about every detail, but I've seen much of what she was predicting 4 or 5 years ago come to pass. And I think we are flirting with a deflationary collapse. My biggest fear is that the people who pay me for my services will end up too broke to keep me solvent. I certainly hope that won't happen, but I can't rule it out. If I weren't worried about that, or about my cash savings possibly being devalued 10X or 100X, I wouldn't be writing this stuff.

She was predicting the end of the world because of peak oil 4 or 5 years ago. Look how that turned out...MORE OIL. Like I said...amateurs...operating in arenas they know nothing about, getting it wrong...but no! Lets pretend they MIGHT be right THIS time because...the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up!  And your cash savings aren't going to devalue in Nicole's deflationary hysteria..they are going to go UP!! So which is it, because it looks like you are proclaiming two, mutually exclusive things happening at the same time.

(I wonder way to cover your bases I might add, should you be called on your call, making sure that no matter which ways it goes, you can claim to have predicted it, like you did the oil drop thing...except the pro's from the EIA had you bet by months...)

Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
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Offline Bob S.

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2015, 05:31:34 PM »
**Money is the ROOT of all Evil**

Love of money is the root of all evil.


Offline K-Dog

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 11:33:32 PM »
**Money is the ROOT of all Evil**

Love of money is the root of all evil.

That is a poignant statement.

Quote
"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."

Before even looking up the quote I was thinking of RE's comment a on top of Moriarty's comment on top of yours.

Quote
Be beholden to no man.  Never a borrower or lender be.

Being in debt is a trap where one must act and will feel that they do indeed love money.  By being beholden to no one the perspective to know that the love of money is the root of all evil becomes possible.  Without being debt free lack of money becomes responsible for all the evil one feels.  This fact becomes an emotional, if not intellectual truth. 

While in debt one can mouth the words 'the love of money is the root of all evil'.  One can feel indignant concerning their debt predicament; but their actions, what a wise deaf mute would see would tell a different tale.

Perhaps debt induces a type of involuntary evil.  This might be a tangent worth pursuing considering how many people are totally submerged by debt around us.  So many Americans are in debt to their eyeballs that it must be affecting their behavior and how they relate to the world.  Perhaps it makes them self absorbed and they withdraw from society.  Perhaps they turn into angry but docile sheep until they snap.

In the past week we have seen evidence that people have been 'going postal' with gun violence ever since Obama took office in record numbers.  Perhaps this is because George Bush put a lot of people in debt.  Perhaps there is a connection here.  The Wall Street crash wiped people out and the prolonged unemployment it generated drained savings.  If people have withdrawn and become isolated and are preoccupied with money because of unmanageable debt might a few loose screws fall out of troubled heads?

San Bernardino is described as the Detroit of California in this topic I started yesterday.

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,6100.msg92948/topicseen.html#msg92948

I'd think the depressed economy of San Bernadino might be a contributing factor to last weeks shootings there but Tashfeed Malik met her husband in Saudi Arabia in 2014 and the shooting she and her husband Syed Farook carried out was a well planned action.  The timing is not right for this shooting to have been spawned by the contemporary American Zeitgeist as I describe it here.

But for other mass shootings which happen once a week now, perhaps my theory has some merit.  If we accept as true that:

Quote
Love of money is the root of all evil.

Why not?  Americans are worried about money.  They are eager for it.  Prices go up but wages don't and now there is a whole lot of evil coming down.  Worry, withdrawal, depression and isolation producing an obsessive search for money that looks from afar like a love of it.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2015, 11:43:43 PM by K-Dog »
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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2015, 03:46:24 AM »
Having no debt doesnt stop u needing money. I have no debt now but cant do like RE and live economically. Just food, fuel, net, clothes, christmas present, property tax and my share of supporting some others burns a bundle.

Still, i agree with REs statement more than the bibles. Money is not the root of ALL evil, as there are 6 other deadly sins. Money is responsible for over half the evil because of its role in other sins such as pride and envy as well as misery and poverty even for those who dont love it.

But i can concieve of a real spirit of abundance  which is what wealth is, without having any money at all. With no such thing as money there can be absolute cooperation. If it is every persons responsibility to produce whatever they are good at and give away whatever they dont use themself,  INCLUDING THEIR TIME to lend a hand whenever needed, then nobody ever needs to worry about going without anything they need and never worry over money, because everything has been payed forward. Saying u r too busy, or keeping whatever it is u can do or produce to yourself unless u receive something directly and immediately in return, would be considered as rude and crazy as going about with your dick hanging out.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 03:54:09 AM by Uncle Bob »
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