AuthorTopic: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?  (Read 7236 times)

Offline RE

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2015, 03:51:07 AM »
**Money is the ROOT of all Evil**

Love of money is the root of all evil.

A distinction without a difference.

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Offline azozeo

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2015, 03:55:51 AM »


Still, i agree with REs statement more than the bibles. Money is not the root of ALL evil, as there are 6 other deadly sins.
[/quote]



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Pride, Anger, Greed, Gluttony, Lust, Envy, Sloth .....
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2015, 06:10:42 AM »
**Money is the ROOT of all Evil**

Love of money is the root of all evil.

A distinction without a difference.

RE

Having no debt doesnt stop u needing money. I have no debt now but cant do like RE and live economically. Just food, fuel, net, clothes, christmas present, property tax and my share of supporting some others burns a bundle.

Still, i agree with REs statement more than the bibles. Money is not the root of ALL evil, as there are 6 other deadly sins. Money is responsible for over half the evil because of its role in other sins such as pride and envy as well as misery and poverty even for those who dont love it.

But i can conceive of a real spirit of abundance  which is what wealth is, without having any money at all. With no such thing as money there can be absolute cooperation. If it is every persons responsibility to produce whatever they are good at and give away whatever they dont use themself,  INCLUDING THEIR TIME to lend a hand whenever needed, then nobody ever needs to worry about going without anything they need and never worry over money, because everything has been payed forward


The world I live in requires money. To say that it's evil. or even at the root of evil, is a kind of way of dodging reality. Not one person who reads on this forum lives without money. Some have worked to become less dependent on it, and that's good as far as I'm concerned, but that doesn't make them morally superior, just more resilient.

Money is a cipher. It is merely arithmetic. All forms of evil have to do with human behavior.No animal other than man is capable of evil. We don't blame a scorpion because it has a sting. It is the nature of scorpions to sting, and they do it without malice, on instinct.

As humans we want to make moral judgments about everything. The truth is that good and evil are flip sides of the same coin, and there is no meaning for either without the other.

It is easy for us to see that we often do things that hurt others...other people, other species, the planet. So we make a list of deadly sins. But it's all in the eye of the beholder.

You need money to buy  food, so...is a little evil okay, just enough to live? How much is it before it becomes over-consumption. Is it okay to grub for enough money for a rental flat, so your children don't have to sleep outdoors? Yes? Well, why not enough to buy a cottage? That's okay? Then why not enough to have a little savings to get you past an emergency?

See?

Monks can wander around outdoors with a bowl, but babies can't, so parents of children aren't likely to spend all their time meditating and seeking alms. It all depends on your personal dharma, how much money you accumulate.

To say that we all need to divorce ourselves from the money economy is to make a value judgment about other people, who might happen to be in a completely different state of need than you are. I think it is fair to say that we become more resilient today if we can reduce our need to live in the money economy. That's truth. What is good and what is evil is another discussion in my book.

I think the Biblical quote from Paul the Apostle really means " the obsession with accumulating money is a root of many evils".

Evil, to my mind, is 100% always about human behavior, and it's a disease that's easy to diagnose in other people, but not so easy to see in one's self.

When it comes to money, I just see it as a means to the ends that I need to accomplish. Worthy goals. If it's evil, it's a completely necessary evil.












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Offline RE

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2015, 06:39:53 AM »
When it comes to money, I just see it as a means to the ends that I need to accomplish. Worthy goals. If it's evil, it's a completely necessary evil.

Within our culture, indeed it is a "Necessary Evil" if you expect to survive.  I certainly do not expect anyone immersed in the industrial society to try to live without money, it's fucking IMPOSSIBLE.  So it doesn't make you Evil to use money in this situation, you have no choice in the matter.  Well, you could choose to die, but that is not a valid choice under consideration since this is not NBL.  LOL.

What the point IS of using the "Money is the Root of All Evil" aphorism is to demonstrate how money perverts the society and the culture.  It exacerbates those other "Sins" of Gluttony, Lust etc.  I mean really, it takes money to be a Glutton, you can't even pig out at Mickey Ds if you have ZERO money.  It takes money pursue your Lust as well, classy Prostitutes don't come cheap.  Just ask Charlie Sheen.  LOL.

Pursuit of Money, trying to "get rich" or at least be part of the ever shrinking middle class IS the "Love of Money".  That is why it is a "distinction without a difference".  The more money you make or try to make, the more you fall in love with it.  The richer you are, the more in love with it you are.  You don't want to give up all those creature comforts the money buys you, not to mention the Hookers & Blow, or the Yacht, or the Private Jet, or just the Lakehouse and the Mercedes.

For myself, I gave up the Love of Money the day I declared Bankruptcy some 25 years ago, and have taught myself to live pretty well on a poverty level income here in the FSoA.  You ALL will either give this up, or you will die.  A world in deficit cannot afford "rich" people, or even comfortably middle class people.  Such a world can only afford poor people, and it behooves you to learn how to live poor now while you still have choices, versus being forced into it later when your choices will be a whole lot more limited.

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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2015, 06:54:42 AM »
Eddie u misunderstand in the same way GO has not understood my thoughts on this previously. In the here and now which is your focus, my very first point was to say that even getting rid of debt, out of debt does not make u free from needing money,  im proof. There may be others who can do different, but not me its just never been my life, which is like leaking like a bucket thats been used for target practice with birdfrite pellet. Yes thats true of THE PRESENT.

 When i talk about no money it is not about individuals living without money while the rest of society does use it. Im talking about money not existing at all. Im talking about what happens at a family xmas party where whatever people HAVE (brought) such as soda or salad is shared and everybody is eager to help cook,  set the table and tidy and wash up. This familiar goodwill and cooperation writ large as an economy can work. Anyone can ask u to fix their teeth and anyone can ask u to stop that and help do something else needing an extra pair of hands. U ask nothing in return and u dont make a mental note anyone owes u a favor, but u also can ask anything of anyone else u need. See how this is true abundance and wealth and freedom from the problem of concern with money?

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Offline Eddie

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2015, 07:07:10 AM »
Yes, I understand what you mean. That is the condition that that Bible refers to (metaphorically as far as I see it) as the Garden.

The rural society I grew up in had much more of a gift economy than the anonymous modern city life I live now.

I think when things are more local again, we'll see that come back, or at least that's my hope. But I always expect that some people will be more generous than others, with money or with anything else. A society without money doesn't change human nature, but it rewards cooperation.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2015, 07:15:26 AM »
For myself, I gave up the Love of Money the day I declared Bankruptcy some 25 years ago, and have taught myself to live pretty well on a poverty level income here in the FSoA.  You ALL will either give this up, or you will die.  A world in deficit cannot afford "rich" people, or even comfortably middle class people.  Such a world can only afford poor people, and it behooves you to learn how to live poor now while you still have choices, versus being forced into it later when your choices will be a whole lot more limited.


Get off your soapbox. Compared to me you live a life of poverty. Compared to a farmer in rural India, you live like a king. Don't tell me it behooves me to learn about how to live poor. I will always try to create abundance, and share it. Your money hang-ups are your problem, not mine.
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Offline RE

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2015, 07:59:15 AM »
For myself, I gave up the Love of Money the day I declared Bankruptcy some 25 years ago, and have taught myself to live pretty well on a poverty level income here in the FSoA.  You ALL will either give this up, or you will die.  A world in deficit cannot afford "rich" people, or even comfortably middle class people.  Such a world can only afford poor people, and it behooves you to learn how to live poor now while you still have choices, versus being forced into it later when your choices will be a whole lot more limited.


Get off your soapbox. Compared to me you live a life of poverty. Compared to a farmer in rural India, you live like a king. Don't tell me it behooves me to learn about how to live poor. I will always try to create abundance, and share it. Your money hang-ups are your problem, not mine.

Pooh Pooh. I made the caveat that it was WITHIN THE INDUSTRIAL CULTURE that I am "living poor".  Compared to a farmer in rural India, even a Welfare Mom is rich.  As always, Rich vs Poor is relative to the society you are immersed in.  I live on less than $15K/year, which makes me OFFICIALLY a "Poor Person" in Alaska.  The Poverty threshold for Alaska is:

2015 POVERTY GUIDELINES FOR ALASKA
Persons in family/household   Poverty guideline
For families/households with more than 8 persons, add $5,200 for each additional person.
1    $14,720

Can YOU live on $15K a year, $20K with your wife?  I can.  In fact I could get it lower than that.

My "money hangups" are yours too.  You just want to deny them. I am here to wake you up.  :icon_sunny:  It's a Mission From God.  lol.


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Offline Eddie

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2015, 08:47:30 AM »
I made the caveat that it was WITHIN THE INDUSTRIAL CULTURE that I am "living poor".  Compared to a farmer in rural India, even a Welfare Mom is rich.  As always, Rich vs Poor is relative to the society you are immersed in.  I live on less than $15K/year, which makes me OFFICIALLY a "Poor Person" in Alaska. 

The fewer other people a man has to take care of, the easier it is to take a vow of poverty.

 Have you ever taken a sick friend into your home and fed them and kept a roof over their head? I have. For three years. Have you given out any college scholarships? I have, four of them. You do much pro bono work? I do a lot. Ever set up a wildlife preserve? I have. Ever plant a tree? I've planted a lot of them.

We're all on a mission from God. The problem is mission creep. When you start on this tack it reminds me a lot of some of those self-righteous folks on NBL who feel so morally superior because they never had kids. You can only make those judgments for your life, not for anyone else's.

I'm trying to build a sanctuary, similar to what UB has managed to do. And I'm trying to provide for the old age of my wife, who is apt to outlive me by twenty years, and has no chance of a job after I'm gone. I do what i do with my eyes wide open, and apologize to no man.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2015, 12:24:28 PM »
I made the caveat that it was WITHIN THE INDUSTRIAL CULTURE that I am "living poor".  Compared to a farmer in rural India, even a Welfare Mom is rich.  As always, Rich vs Poor is relative to the society you are immersed in.  I live on less than $15K/year, which makes me OFFICIALLY a "Poor Person" in Alaska. 

The fewer other people a man has to take care of, the easier it is to take a vow of poverty.

 Have you ever taken a sick friend into your home and fed them and kept a roof over their head? I have. For three years. Have you given out any college scholarships? I have, four of them. You do much pro bono work? I do a lot. Ever set up a wildlife preserve? I have. Ever plant a tree? I've planted a lot of them.

We're all on a mission from God. The problem is mission creep. When you start on this tack it reminds me a lot of some of those self-righteous folks on NBL who feel so morally superior because they never had kids. You can only make those judgments for your life, not for anyone else's.

I'm trying to build a sanctuary, similar to what UB has managed to do. And I'm trying to provide for the old age of my wife, who is apt to outlive me by twenty years, and has no chance of a job after I'm gone. I do what i do with my eyes wide open, and apologize to no man.

My, my you are defensive on this topic, aren't you?

Yes, it takes more money to live if you have dependents, that's why you get $5000 additional per dependent to be considered poor.  So if I had a wife and two kids, I would need to be able to take care of them on $30K.  I could do that.

I've never had a sick friend to take care of, but when Roamer showed up here he was welcome to stay in the digs with me as much as he wanted for as long as he wanted.  You don't need a huge McMansion to offer shelter to a friend.

I've never handed out any college scholarships, but I have given plenty of free lessons to gymmies whose parents had trouble affording the gym's regular tuition.  I encouraged many of the owners I worked for to scholarship the less well to do gymmies.  If it was my own gym I most certainly would have done that.

Anyhow, my point is that down the pipe a ways EVERYBODY is going to be poor, so it is worthwhile to practice up living cheap now.  That's why I do the SNAP Card Gourmet articles and videos.  I don't really need to live on a food budget of $140/mo, but I do anyhow.  I save money that way, I stay in surplus and stay out of debt.  Can I say that again?  NO DEBT.  There is nothing you need to go into debt for.  All my cars after the BK I paid CASH for.  You can rent a place if you don't have enough cash to buy one already built, or you can buy raw land and build on it yourself a little at a time.  You don't need an expensive college education to learn, there's a library in every decent size town and the internet too of course.

Because I have no debt, I also pay no interest to the Banksters.  If everybody did what I do, the scumbags wold wither away and die without having to string them up by their gonads from lampposts.

Anyhow, I am just informing you of these things to help you transition to impoverishment on your own terms when Da Goobermint taxes your bizness out from under you and your patients can't afford the dental care anymore.  I know you lived poor as a kid, but you're out of practice.  LOL.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2015, 12:42:21 PM »
Not defensive. Sure of my position, is all. I've given it plenty of thought.

 You are correct that we'll all get poorer. No doubt there, it's happening already, and I have noticed. Not ready to sell off everything and go to the gift economy though. Maybe in a better world i could do that.
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Offline RE

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2015, 12:57:33 PM »
Not defensive. Sure of my position, is all. I've given it plenty of thought.

 You are correct that we'll all get poorer. No doubt there, it's happening already, and I have noticed. Not ready to sell off everything and go to the gift economy though. Maybe in a better world i could do that.

You don't have to live as poor as me or sell off everything.  Just pay off all your debts and see how little you can live on each month, paring down your expenses a little at a time.  This way, you don't have to suddenly transition to poverty, you ease your way into it.  It's less of a psychological disruption that way.

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Offline K-Dog

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2015, 01:09:11 PM »
Not defensive. Sure of my position, is all. I've given it plenty of thought.

 You are correct that we'll all get poorer. No doubt there, it's happening already, and I have noticed. Not ready to sell off everything and go to the gift economy though. Maybe in a better world i could do that.

You don't have to live as poor as me or sell off everything.  Just pay off all your debts and see how little you can live on each month, paring down your expenses a little at a time.  This way, you don't have to suddenly transition to poverty, you ease your way into it.  It's less of a psychological disruption that way.

RE

Excellent advice.  It isn't a contest, the goal is to get free of debt so your life does not belong to other people.  Then save and prepare for your future.  I'm happy to say that despite a long bout of unemployment which ended a year ago I never went into debt and am now packing quite a bit away every month.  My advice is if you want something but you don't have the money to get it then don't get it. 

I have never had car payments because I buy used cars with cash.  A mortgage is as necessary evil but paying extra to bring the principle down so you can pay it off early is the way to go.  Ms Dog and I did that and now it is gone.
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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2015, 03:09:24 PM »
I'm not a devotee of Eric Sprott, but this article shows what I'm talking about as far as demand for coins. This article is about silver, but the same kind of graph could be drawn with gold.
Gold and silver may be behaving in a similar manner at the moment, but you definitely cannot view them similarly.  As you alluded to earlier, gold typically does not behave as a commodity, and the reason for that is simple: practically all of the gold ever mined is STILL available, whether in bars, coins, or jewelry.  Only a tiny fraction of yearly mining output get used industrially in a manner where it is dissipated to the point of being economically unrecoverable.  Contrast that with silver, whose yearly industrial use is close to or may even exceed the mining output; only a small percent is put into easily recoverable form like coins or jewelry.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: What Does it Mean When Demand for Physical Bullion Coins Goes Exponential ?
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2015, 04:24:18 PM »
I was hoping you'd say that. :)

We know silver is different than gold because it IS a commodity. But we also know silver behaves like money...in certain circumstances, right? Can we agree there?

So, today my favorite coin dealer is selling individual Silver Eagles for $18.00. The spot price this morning was $14.21 per Troy oz.

My question to you: When coin price premium is 26.67% marked up over spot....in that particular circumstance....is silver acting more like a commodity, or more like money?

I'd say money. And if that's true, it's still telling us the same thing gold is telling us.

That's why I didn't go to great lengths to talk about what you just mentioned, although it is a perfectly valid point.

I understand industry mostly buys silver as silver shot, which can be had in amounts over 100 oz. for only about 4% over spot, just to compare.





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