AuthorTopic: Official Chinese Toast Thread  (Read 246583 times)

Offline Petty Tyrant

  • Cannot be Saved
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 4573
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #375 on: June 07, 2015, 10:23:56 PM »
It would seem to me it does matter to you what was touted by others in 05 because u keep relying on it.
Huh?

Quote
mathus was wrong and we are malthusiuns so we are wrong in general.
Malthus was wrong and malthusian predictions of doom have been consistently wrong for over two centuries, correct. That does not mean that it WILL be wrong going forward. Things could change. But the historical record is not enviable. We'll see. Every dog has its day, right? Maybe Malthus will prove to be right, finally. Anything's possible.

Meanwhile, as I pointed out, renewable energy does not have such a terrible track record. It actually has almost NO track record, in size.

Quote
It is not bad for me what anyone said Around 05.
I meant it is bad for DD GENERALLY (not you personally) that DD seems to intone ideas -- "china is toast", "china is collapsing" (right now), etc. -- that are clearly wrong and will probably continue to be wrong for a long time. Same when DD intones ideas seemingly reflected from 2005 oildrum/etc. Maybe it is just R.E., but not really. I hear similar stuff from others.

Quote
I cant imagine shopping for food on that kind of budget and couldnt do it If u tried.
What kind of budget? I wish you would say. I wish  you would write in complete sentences, and complete your thoughts, so as to make for fully intelligible messages.

I eat about as cheap as anyone. Well, almost. Potatoes, cabbage, carrots, onions, oatmeal, milk. Years ago, I made a game out of seeing how little I could spend on food. In the 70s, I got by on ONE dollar a day. Of course, things have changed, and it is difficult to get through a day under $3. Lots of days I splurge and spend $6.

Quote
I know once u dont have any money u may as well be dead in this society.
Some things about this society are sick indeed.

Quote
So many solutions.
I'm ready for my "writing without sarcasm" lesson, Unca Bob.  ;)

If u missed the whole snap card gourmet series and costs of the jewish chicken soup post then it confirms my suspicion about your generalizations. If u were as familiar with what u call the prevailing viewpoint on dd u would have to know what i was talking about.

Here is the lesson in sarcasm. Note that i made my point with evidence And then said the sarcasm. I didnt use sarcasm and strawmen as a default fallback when presented with facts and reasons.

I havent conflated overall wealth with social justice. I am stating the real situation of the direction in which it is heading. U want to think it through using a best case scenario of what ought to be Because as u say u cant just give up. Thats not being a realist. Stop military spending in favor of social security spending sounds great but isnt the way the wind is blowing. The same goes for many solutions that could make for a brighter future.
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

Offline alan2102

  • Contrarian
  • Waitstaff
  • *
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #376 on: June 08, 2015, 07:03:34 AM »
Uncle bob wrote:
"look at the contraction in the developed world he speaks of which u say is good because we are too big and too rich in realty. people getting their power and gas and water turned off more often than switching to renewable clean sources... Its not a matter of not buying another new car next year its a matter of ending up living in your car Until its repoed, Homelessness now a crime punishable by summary execution As part of the smooth transition without any starvation."

Hence, we have Alan saying that the contraction in the developed world  is good.

Is Uncle Bob saying something OTHER than that?

Is Uncle Bob saying that that contraction is NOT good?

RSVP.





Offline alan2102

  • Contrarian
  • Waitstaff
  • *
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #377 on: June 08, 2015, 07:17:44 AM »
If u missed the whole snap card gourmet series and costs of the jewish chicken soup post then it confirms my suspicion about your generalizations. If u were as familiar with what u call the prevailing viewpoint on dd u would have to know what i was talking about.
So I have to spend 4 hours per day here over weeks or months, keeping up with every trivial chicken soup recipe thread, in order to know the prevailing viewpoint on DD? No, I don't think so. I've read many hundreds of substantive posts here. I get the gist, the tone, pretty well. There is a general current that is identifiable.

Quote
Here is the lesson in sarcasm. Note that i made my point with evidence And then said the sarcasm. I didnt use sarcasm and strawmen as a default fallback when presented with facts and reasons.
Neither do I use sarcasm as a default. I use it in reaction, only after my previous dozen (or whatever) fact-based, documented posts have been ignored or waved-off with some bullshit generalities and statements of religious faith (e.g. "the system is unsustainable!") or tautologies (e.g. "you can't have infinite growth on a finite planet!"). Or purely visceral, emotion-based displays like R.E.'s long postings of lurid doom-porn photos of polluted rivers in China or whatever, as though that rubbish represented a response to the evidence and rational argument that preceeded on the thread. Yes, THEN I get sarcastic, and justifiably. If you followed the threads, you would know this.

I am DRIVEN to sarcasm. It is not my first choice. If you read my posts in context, progressively (i.e. starting at the beginning of the exchanges) you would know this. Maybe you don't know it because you jump in late in the game.

Offline Petty Tyrant

  • Cannot be Saved
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 4573
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #378 on: June 08, 2015, 08:33:27 AM »
If u missed the whole snap card gourmet series and costs of the jewish chicken soup post then it confirms my suspicion about your generalizations. If u were as familiar with what u call the prevailing viewpoint on dd u would have to know what i was talking about.
So I have to spend 4 hours per day here over weeks or months, keeping up with every trivial chicken soup recipe thread, in order to know the prevailing viewpoint on DD? No, I don't think so. I've read many hundreds of substantive posts here. I get the gist, the tone, pretty well. There is a general current that is identifiable.

Quote
Here is the lesson in sarcasm. Note that i made my point with evidence And then said the sarcasm. I didnt use sarcasm and strawmen as a default fallback when presented with facts and reasons.
Neither do I use sarcasm as a default. I use it in reaction, only after my previous dozen (or whatever) fact-based, documented posts have been ignored or waved-off with some bullshit generalities and statements of religious faith (e.g. "the system is unsustainable!") or tautologies (e.g. "you can't have infinite growth on a finite planet!"). Or purely visceral, emotion-based displays like R.E.'s long postings of lurid doom-porn photos of polluted rivers in China or whatever, as though that rubbish represented a response to the evidence and rational argument that preceeded on the thread. Yes, THEN I get sarcastic, and justifiably. If you followed the threads, you would know this.

I am DRIVEN to sarcasm. It is not my first choice. If you read my posts in context, progressively (i.e. starting at the beginning of the exchanges) you would know this. Maybe you don't know it because you jump in late in the game.

there are only a few regular contributors here and several have stated outright to u that they do not believe china is toast. Yet u told us we need to get on board with them up and us down. thats as good as u are at detecting a prevailing view.

Why is re showing u rivers running red rubbish? They have 60% of groundwater declared not just unfit to drink but unfit for human contact And surface water even worse. Thats why they take drinking water from the great lakes. It is extremely optimistic to think this can be cleaned up as u say. But as u say  you cant give up. Thats your stated reason. Maybe "i cant just give up" Is the religious and emotion based response to the facts and documented posts. .... yes the facts fly in the face of wishful thinking but what do u want me to do..just give up? I cant answer that because my approach seems different than yours. Not giving up for me means mastering my own destiny By setting up a simple sustainable way of life.

Same story with the sarcasm im sorry now i ever ventured an opinion on. Yes u present some possible partial solutions but when it is explained why they are unlikely to ever be implemented you do not try to refute the argument but go with a sarcastic strawman such as armageddon. If u can put eddie in the same basket with david koresh hes crazy and anything he says is religious nonsense. i didnt miss any earlier posts i read them all so i saw the solutions u presented and i saw the rebuttals with the reasons u rejected with sarcasm. This is really not important though And its not worth going on about. I have already given my opinion u r not deliberately trolling which was the context of the question. U seem to mean well in your motive that may or may not be misguided And may or may not mean my lifes work ends up worthless. Thanks!

also if u want to remain relevant u should get up to date with leading bau cheerleading bloomberg and salon and huffpo who are questioning the recovery might be a recession after all Lol.

 

« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 08:41:28 AM by Uncle Bob »
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

Offline Petty Tyrant

  • Cannot be Saved
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 4573
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #379 on: June 08, 2015, 09:25:53 AM »
Uncle bob wrote:
"look at the contraction in the developed world he speaks of which u say is good because we are too big and too rich in realty. people getting their power and gas and water turned off more often than switching to renewable clean sources... Its not a matter of not buying another new car next year its a matter of ending up living in your car Until its repoed, Homelessness now a crime punishable by summary execution As part of the smooth transition without any starvation."

Hence, we have Alan saying that the contraction in the developed world  is good.

Is Uncle Bob saying something OTHER than that?

Is Uncle Bob saying that that contraction is NOT good?

RSVP.

u dont get the whole debtonomics grow or die Econosystem . growth is not like goldilocks and the 3 bears. She tried mama bears porridge too cold...  1% or less gdp. She tried papa bears porridge too hot... double digit yoy gdp growth but baby bears porridge was just right. 5 odd % keeping perfect pace with inflation.

 Then she tried their beds b3ing tired.  Papa bears was too hard... like 1929 or 1890 when the great depression and irish potato famine due to exporting tO the world market meant the irish had to export themselves and never stopped. Mama bears was too soft.... like 2008 central bank stimulus blowing bubbles. But baby bears bed was just right like a tiger economy in the TPP where our loss is their gain becoming call centre and factory slaves .

After that she sat in their chairs but when she sat in baby bears chair it didnt work out just right it crashed and broke And she started crying. Like a homeless person who had too much middle class  growth and needed to check their privilege. Their utilities disconnected then house and car got repoed when their workplace downsized and their severance ran out. then sold loose cigwrettes until cash was banned. Degrowing would be great in a social security instead of a  surveilance states solution. We get what we work for not what we wish for Im afraid Alan.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 09:49:05 AM by Uncle Bob »
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

Offline alan2102

  • Contrarian
  • Waitstaff
  • *
  • Posts: 359
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #380 on: June 08, 2015, 11:18:17 AM »
Bob: is GDP contraction in the developed world good, bad or neither? Simple question.

Offline Petty Tyrant

  • Cannot be Saved
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 4573
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #381 on: June 08, 2015, 02:21:04 PM »
Bob: is GDP contraction in the developed world good, bad or neither? Simple question.

 good in a fairytale where the govt will feed u forever.
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

Offline Palloy

  • Sous Chef
  • ****
  • Posts: 3751
    • View Profile
    • https://palloy.wordpress.com
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #382 on: June 08, 2015, 02:28:01 PM »
Quote
Alan: So I have to spend 4 hours per day here over weeks or months, keeping up with every trivial chicken soup recipe thread, in order to know the prevailing viewpoint on DD? No, I don't think so.

...

If you read my posts in context, progressively (i.e. starting at the beginning of the exchanges) you would know this. Maybe you don't know it because you jump in late in the game.

So you jump in late in the game, and don't want to keep up with DD viewpoints, but you want everyone else to keep up with yours, and accuse them of jumping in late in the game when they don't.  Nice logic (sarcasm).
The State is a body of armed men

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #383 on: June 08, 2015, 03:24:51 PM »


RE

Xinhua Insight: Overexploitation, pollution threaten China's coasts

English.news.cn   2015-06-08 18:45:52    [More]

NANNING, June 8 (Xinhua) -- Depleted fisheries and pollution have left Wu Ruiwei and his peers from Qiaogang Town in south China's Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region with fewer fish and shrimp in their usual fishing spots.

"When I was a child, our boat could be filled immediately with fish in one net near the port. But now only small fish can be found," fisherman Fan Chengjin told Xinhua ahead of the annual World Oceans Day, observed on June 8.

Wu Ruiwei said he shares Fan's worries. He was able to earn at least 300,000 yuan (about 48,400 U.S. dollars) annually five years ago. "Without the country's diesel subsidies to fishermen, I would be losing money now."

There are more than 10,000 fishermen in Qiaogang Town, accounting for over 60 percent of the total population.

In order to survive, some of them have had to fish farther from shore, while others have left the industry.

In addition to depletion of fisheries, Wu said excessive coastal development and pollution have caused degradation of China's marine environment.

South China's Hainan Province, an island the size of Belgium, has earned a reputation as the perfect holiday destination, leading to a local economic boom. However, swarms of tourists and overdevelopment of coastlines have posed a serious risk to local marine ecology.

Researchers say more than 90 percent of the island's east coast has been used for real estate development.

Wang Ying, a marine geologist with the Chinese Academy of Sciences, said at a forum Sunday that mass construction of tourist facilities, such as hotels and scenic spots along the coast, will lead to increased shoreline erosion.

A total of 4,200 meters of beach in the bays and harbors east of Haikou City were eroded by sea water between 2009 and 2014, Wang said, adding that bedrock was also exposed due to erosion along the beach near hotel and villa developments west of the city.

Pollution is another serious problem in China's coastal areas.

Industrial and agricultural discharge, along with a jump in the amount of household garbage as the island urbanizes, are mostly to blame for the pollution.

"It is difficult to find pristine clear waters and white sandy beaches anymore in some seaside areas," a resident with the surname Luo from Hainan said.

Her sentiment is supported by research. The majority of China's coastal areas have unhealthy ecosystems due to heavy pollution, a report from the State Oceanic Administration (SOA) said.

Of the areas monitored by the SOA in the summer of 2014, 81 percent, or 41,000 sq km, were polluted. According to the report, most of the polluted water was concentrated in river estuaries or sea bays. The main pollutants were inorganic nitrogen, reactive phosphate and oil.

Along with the rapid development of industry and cities, coastal pollution has caused and worsened frequent episodes of red tide, a type of harmful algal bloom, said Lyu Shuguo, a researcher with the Hainan Research Academy of Environmental Sciences.

Lyu said 14 bays along Hainan's 1,528-kilometer-long coastline are at risk for red tide, which may threaten the health of locals and damage the environment.

SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT NEEDED

In his message for World Oceans Day, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said that two out of every five people live near a shore, and three out of seven depend on marine and coastal resources to survive.

He called on people to use ocean resources peacefully, equitably and sustainably for generations to come.

To ease environmental strain, China has adopted measures including massive tree-planting and coral restoration campaigns, clamping down on illegal wastewater discharge, treating polluted rivers and launching public education activities.

Experts have called for local governments to enact rules and policies and evaluate the effects of projects near straits or islands before construction to prevent possible damage to the environment.

During this year's fishing off-season in Guangxi, which lasts from May until August, Wu Ruiwei and other fishermen will gather to discuss their future: deep-sea fisheries.

"When there are fewer fish in the coastal areas, we have to go farther from shore," he said, sighing. But he does not want to bring the problems of overfishing and pollution with him, farther out to sea.

"I hope with technology and fishery management, most fisheries can be made sustainable to protect our ocean," he said.
Save As Many As You Can

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #384 on: June 08, 2015, 03:55:51 PM »


RE

China issues rainstorm, drought warnings

Source:Xinhua Published: 2015-6-1 23:25:38

The State Flood Control and Drought Relief Headquarters on Monday issued warnings for torrential rain and flooding across south and northeastern China.

Heavy rain will pelt areas to the south of Yangtze River as well as valleys around the Songhuajiang and Liao rivers in northeastern China throughout June, the headquarters said in a statement.

China is confronted with the complicated situation that it must tackle floods and droughts at the same time, said Chen Lei, minister of water resources.

Rainfall will not be evenly distributed across China this month, with some regions in north and southwestern China likely to suffer droughts, said the headquarters.

South China , which has seen terrible storms over the last week, will be battered by rain for the next 10 days, the National Meteorological Center forecast on Sunday.
Save As Many As You Can

Guest

  • Guest
China, the Paper Tiger
« Reply #385 on: June 08, 2015, 04:24:37 PM »


Off the keyboard of Tom Lewis



Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666

Friend us on Facebook



Published on The Daily Impact on June 8, 2015



Visit the New Diner News Page for Daily Updates from around the Collapse Blogosphere



toast2China is TOAST!



Discuss this article at the Economics Table inside the Diner




Is China a paper tiger or a pussycat? It depends on which numbers you look at.  (Photo by Jinzlís Public Domain Photos/Flickr)



 



Is China a paper tiger or a pussycat? It depends on which numbers you look at.

(Photo by Jinzl’s Public Domain Photos/Flickr)




The punditocracy assembled yesterday, as they do every Sunday, to yelp their yin-yang talking points that pass, these days, for wisdom. Mostly they want to talk about who, a year and a half from now, might be chosen as the new captain of the Titanic — Hillary or anti-Hillary? Then, like the proverbial elephant terrorized by a mouse, they vent about the latest pimply-faced adolescent who, dreaming of celebrity and inspired by an ISIS website, takes the first giant step toward jihad: gets in touch with an FBI informant for his very own ACME bomb-making kit. Then before the pundits rest, they make their fervent nominations for our next war.



There are lots of candidates: resume Afghanistan, Iraq II, bomb-bomb-bomb-Iran, Russia Redux. But an emerging favorite is China. It seems a deliciously terrifying prospect — the world’s number one economy, most populous country, reinventing the Silk Road, dethroning the dollar as the world’s currency of choice, extending its hegemony over the South China Sea by building a sand castle. What a worthy opponent, bent on taking over the world. Truly, this could be our next good war.



One exhilarated panelist this weekend burst out: “We are already in a virtual state of war with China.” It was, he insisted, the Most Important Thing in the World.



The thing is, if you are determined to pick a fight with someone who is on life support, you must be quick. To believe that China is going to survive another decade, let alone rise to world domination, you must ignore the following stories, all published in the past few weeks:




  • China is running out of water. Its own environment ministry classifies 60% of its underground water and one third of its surface water as so polluted it is “unfit for human contact.” That does not mean “Don’t drink it.” It means “Don’t touch it.”


  • Air pollution in China kills half a million people a year. 90% of China’s 161 major cities failed to meet the national standard for clean air in 2014. Just breathing, in most major cities, is equivalent to smoking three packs of cigarettes a day. Lung cancer fatalities have quintupled in 30 years.


  • China’s population is increasingly old and sick. Half the population is estimated to be pre-diabetic. 115 million people have diabetes, 225 million suffer from mental illness, 160 million have high blood pressure. By 2040, China is expected to have more people suffering from Alzheimer’s Disease than the rest of the world combined. The costs of these afflictions to the Chinese economy is already astronomical, and growing fast.


  • China is running short of productive land. Pollution of soil from factory smokestacks, and from excessive fertilizer and pesticide application, is endangering China’s ability to feed itself.


  • China’s faltering economy is constraining government budgets and fostering instability. Now, talking about war is a time-honored way of getting your restive people to settle down and salute the flag. But actually going to war, when you’re short of money, your people are brandishing pitchforks at you, and you’re dependent on the rest of the world for coal and food? Not recommended.



What is it that Chairman Mao said of the West, all those years ago?  “In appearance it is very powerful but in reality it is nothing to be afraid of; it is a paper tiger. Outwardly a tiger, it is made of paper, unable to withstand the wind and the rain.”



Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
Re: Official Chinese Toast Thread
« Reply #386 on: June 08, 2015, 04:55:50 PM »
Tom Lewis weighs in on the Toast Side of the debate.  :icon_sunny:

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
SELL ALL YOUR GOLD AND INVEST IN...
« Reply #387 on: June 09, 2015, 01:35:54 AM »
CHINESE UMBRELLAS!!!

27X Return inside of 4 months!  :o



RE

When It Rains It Pours: Shares Of Chinese Umbrella Manufacturer Rise 2,700%

Submitted by Tyler Durden on 06/08/2015 22:00 -0400
 

As mentioned previously, Chinaís world-beating equity rally is the gift that keeps on giving, and not just for those who are riding the inexorable, margin-fueled rally. The mania also provides quite a bit of comic relief for those of us who are, on a daily basis, inundated with hundreds of depressingly absurd Greek soundbites and hoplessly clueless central banker ruminations.

Valuations have skyrocketed in China, with the median PE on the Shenzhen sitting at a cool 108X, which looks impressive until you consider that the ChiNext trades at 133X. The siren song is in fact so alluring that some US-listed Chinese tech firms are repatriating because they feel they arenít getting the valuations they 'deserve.'

ďAmerican investors don't understand the business model," one Chinese tech executive recently told Reuters.

One business model thatís easy to understand is that of Hong Kong-listed Jicheng Umbrella Holdings Limited. As you might have guessed from the name, the company designs, researches, manufactures and sells plastic umbrellas. Thatís really all you need to know to appreciate the following chart which shows that shares have risen some 2,700% since February 13 (also note the annualized figure)...


*  *  *

What bubble? 
Save As Many As You Can

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
WHITHER CHINA? VIDCAST
« Reply #388 on: June 09, 2015, 04:01:07 AM »
This Coming Sunday at High Noon AK Time, I am hosting a Collapse Cafe to discuss the China Question.

NEXT WORLD SUPERPOWER OR BIGGEST CRASH VICTIM?

I have invited many of the usual suspects in these chats, and have  :emthup: from Ugo Bardi and Tom Lewis so far.

To pick up the China Bull side, Surly is inviting Pepe Escobar, however so far the China Bull side is thin in support.

So A21, I am inviting you in to argue the China Bull side of this question.  ;D

GOT COJONES?

Time to Put Up or Shut Up:icon_mrgreen:

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline jdwheeler42

  • Global Moderator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 3339
    • View Profile
    • Going Upslope
Re: WHITHER CHINA? VIDCAST
« Reply #389 on: June 09, 2015, 08:21:30 AM »
NEXT WORLD SUPERPOWER OR BIGGEST CRASH VICTIM?
Personally, I would say neither.  Rather, I think China is one of the best prepared nations for the crash, so it will come out relatively on top.  But that doesn't mean they won't be hurting.

Just like the Byzantine empire was an echo of the glory of Rome, I don't think China will ever achieve the same world superpower status that the United States did in the 20th century.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
9 Replies
4816 Views
Last post July 28, 2014, 12:02:37 AM
by RE
7 Replies
2197 Views
Last post June 11, 2015, 11:56:21 AM
by azozeo
0 Replies
1384 Views
Last post April 26, 2016, 05:56:46 PM
by RE