AuthorTopic: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom  (Read 19202 times)

Offline John of Wallan

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 584
  • You bloody galah!
    • View Profile
Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« on: January 27, 2017, 02:49:02 AM »
Wow, go to work for a day and this small quiet blog goes crazy!
Good thought provoking threads. Lots of incorrect assumption, but we cant all be right all the time. Not even RE. I am still trying to catch him out....

Quote
No, what we need here is Rainbow Shitting Unicorns or the Ferengi arriving in Starships loaded with DiLithium Crystals and Gold Pressed Latinum.
There is no solution to this problem here on Earth other than vast numbers of DEAD PEOPLE.  None.  Live with it..
RE


Yep, there are plenty of people not only hoping for solutions much more improbable than unicorns and space ships,  but actually relying on them. They are plan A, B, C and D to get through what lays ahead!

One of the few truly head exploding dismissals of the coming catastrophe I have ever had was when I was told with a straight face by an ex-school friend how we didn’t have to do anything to fix any of the current issues because their god would save the true believers. Those that are not true believers would die apparently.... Well I’m screwed then! This is as about as logical as most of the other solutions put up to solve our dilemma. Supernatural deities, benevolent alien botanists, undiscovered or hidden government conspiracy technologies, including but not limited to alien technologies, hidden orbiting space stations, moon bases and worm holes will save us to name just a few.

The really insidious, evil ideas are those put forward by “intelligent experts” as technically possible engineering solutions: The space reflectors, or salt chrystal cloud seeding, or ocean fertilizing with iron, or any other climate modifying technology.... Cant get people to give up bacon.. . How we going to get people to fund space mirrors?

The other group of crazies are the deniers. Nothing is happening. The arctic being ice free is normal and will have no effects, populations can grow forever, peak oil is a myth as we have enough oil for 1000 years, fracking will make us energy independent, or my favourite: The government would have told us if these problems were real...
 
Nope, once again RE is right damn it!
We are screwed. (Doh!)
There is no way to ski down the energy slope with 7 or 8 billion people. 7 Million maybe. I am trying to figure out how to keep 7 or 8 alive until old age!

I often find myself to be naive. I am shocked on a daily basis by the stupidity and ignorance of the general public. My wife scolds me when I talk like this. I keep telling her: We are all born ignorant, but in this day and age of connectivity, science and communication it takes a special deliberate effort to remain so. I dislike ignorant people. Ignorant people are a danger to other people. Ignorant people will be the first I will eat when we get to the cannibalism stage of collapse. There are a lot of them too.

I realized a long time ago the truism: No matter how cynical you become it is never enough.
 
Now I just do what I do and go my own way. To some respects I have given up on finding solutions, and now do what I can to help me and mine get by as long and as comfortably as we can when the SHTF big time.
A pleasant irony has been the fact that giving up some luxuries others deem necessary such as cutting down on meat, using 2nd hand and/or old things, having a vegetable garden and fruit trees instead of a pristine lawn no one’s kids play on, has actually made me healthier, wealthier and less stressed.

The time to bicker about what object the ship has struck is over. We just need to got to the lifeboats. There will be time to work out if it was a reef, an iceberg or a torpedo later.

That line reminds of a Kenny Rogers song I think::
“There will be time for counting money when the dealings done!”
I have not heard that song for a while. Not sure if it is relevant actually. :(
I am wandering. Time to finish up.

On reflection Eddie is right too, some things are harder to give up than others. Its the little luxuries. Eddie has his bacon. Red wine is mine. For others it is their entire way of life being not negotiable; not one inch.

JOW     
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 06:21:42 PM by RE »

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2017, 03:14:46 AM »
Wow, go to work for a day and this small quiet blog goes crazy!
Good thought provoking threads. Lots of incorrect assumption, but we cant all be right all the time. Not even RE. I am still trying to catch him out....


Good Luck with that one.  These days, I LIVE to argue on the internet, and I am fucking really good at it.  NOBODY will "catch me out", EVAH!

TAKE ME ON MUTHAFUCKA!  THIS IS THE DINER THUNDERDOME!  TWO DOOMERS ENTER, ONE DOOMER LEAVES!  NO PRISONERS ARE TAKEN ON THE DINER!

Of course in the end you cannot win no matter what on the Diner because I own the fucking place.  :icon_sunny:
Save As Many As You Can

Offline John of Wallan

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 584
  • You bloody galah!
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2017, 03:33:49 AM »
Try decaf Rockatansky.
Actually you are you more like the Collector. (You look a bit like Frank Thring)

I naively accept your challenge!

Riddle me this twitchy:
If there are too many people using up too many resources on this finite planet, why are you so sure humanity will survive?
What stops the ever smaller lifeboats eventually getting overfilled again?

JOW

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2017, 04:17:41 AM »
Try decaf Rockatansky.
Actually you are you more like the Collector. (You look a bit like Frank Thring)

I naively accept your challenge!

Riddle me this twitchy:
If there are too many people using up too many resources on this finite planet, why are you so sure humanity will survive?
What stops the ever smaller lifeboats eventually getting overfilled again?

JOW

I don't think "humanity will survive".  In fact I am sure humanity will not survive long term.  Extinction is a guarantee IMHO.

The issue I m concerned with is the TIMELINE  to extinction.

Guy McPherson has all Dead People at around 2025 now.  I dispute this timeline.

I also dispute how to approach the problem.  The trick to living is to stay alive as long as you can, not to quit and say it is a Hopeless adventure.  Eventually, it is definitely hopeless, but how long is that exactly?  Nobody lives forever, not even David Rockefeller now on his 7th Heart Transplant.

I think some Homo Saps can make it through to the Year 2525.  Zager & Evans predicted this. But whatevah the final year is does not really matter here, the struggle for survival until that day does come is what matters.  We still have time left, so make the best of it while you walk the earth and don't descend into nihilism and misanthropy on the way out the door.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/yesyhQkYrQM" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/yesyhQkYrQM</a>

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline Palloy2

  • Global Moderator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 6113
    • View Profile
    • Palloy's Blog
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2017, 06:26:45 AM »
Humanity will survive because some of humanity haven't even heard about gasoline yet, let alone had to buy the stuff, so will not be troubled by its passing.  They live in the dense forests of the Amazon and Central America, in the southern foothills of the Himalaya, in Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia, on Pacific islands from Borneo to Papua, in Western Africa. 

They have lifestyles that haven't changed for thousands of years, with no imports and exports, no balance of payments problems, no jobs but no unemployment either.  Many more have lifestyles that have only been lightly touched by the modern world, they have seen roads and cars, but it has never crossed their minds that they could have that too.

Eventually they will evolve into what we would regard as a new species, but to them they will be just the same, generation after generation, the same.
"The State is a body of armed men."

Offline JRM

  • Sous Chef
  • ****
  • Posts: 4502
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2017, 07:38:48 AM »
Some may think I'm ignorant in some basic, general way, about all this collapse stuff.  But I don't think I am. Not in a big, general way. I may lack some sense of some of the fine points, but not the basic stuff.

The near term major concern I have isn't a mass die-off resulting from famine.  There have always been local and regional famines, and there will probably be more of this over time due mainly to climate disruption:  "climate refugees".  Rising sea water levels will add to this, of course. But, over all -- generally -- folks will adapt. It will be hard at times and in places, but folks will adapt.

My concern is with the potential of massive abrupt discontinuities which are too swift and potent for folks to adapt well.  And the biggest risk here, I think, is with regard to the FINANCIAL SYSTEM to which most of us in the modern world have our food supply yoked.  As it stands, if the financial system takes a very strong nose dive (full blown collapse), which it could at most any time, this would precipitate what you might call a massive "adaptive challenge".  Many would not adapt, because there would not be time enough for them to do so.  Social unrest would be an understatement.  Chaos would ensue, things would be broken and set afire... Lots of people would die.  Maybe the military would take over governments and figure out a way to ensure that people are fed and that life could go on, albeit, very differently.  Maybe.  But that would mean an elimination of basic freedoms which would not be tolerable and which should not be long tolerated. 

A much better fate for us would be to have us all deliberately emplace, resilient systems where fragile systems now exist instead.  This most especially with regard to food, shelter, water... our basic human needs.  This would allow us all to experience a massive shock to the financial system, including it's collapse, without a collapse of our adaptive capacity.  We could then continue that same trend by further emplacing resilient, sustainable and regenerative systems -- thus changing the entire culture as we know it, from top to bottom.

But first we need to wake up.  This is a possibility most here vehemently doubt.  But I'm working on a plan.  And it doesn't involve asking congressmen or senators or presidents for their permission or support.  Nor does it involve storming the seats of government with pitchforks and torches -- or guns. 
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 07:45:14 AM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline luciddreams

  • Global Moderator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 3497
    • View Profile
    • Epiphany Now
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2017, 07:43:22 AM »
Humanity will survive because some of humanity haven't even heard about gasoline yet, let alone had to buy the stuff, so will not be troubled by its passing.  They live in the dense forests of the Amazon and Central America, in the southern foothills of the Himalaya, in Vietnam/Laos/Cambodia, on Pacific islands from Borneo to Papua, in Western Africa. 

They have lifestyles that haven't changed for thousands of years, with no imports and exports, no balance of payments problems, no jobs but no unemployment either.  Many more have lifestyles that have only been lightly touched by the modern world, they have seen roads and cars, but it has never crossed their minds that they could have that too.

Eventually they will evolve into what we would regard as a new species, but to them they will be just the same, generation after generation, the same.

Unless the Corporations have enough fossil fuel juice to finish completely destroying the planet they live on.  Then they will die to, along with the rest of us. 

Offline jdwheeler42

  • Global Moderator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 3339
    • View Profile
    • Going Upslope
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2017, 09:42:50 AM »
I don't think "humanity will survive".  In fact I am sure humanity will not survive long term.  Extinction is a guarantee IMHO.
I think human beings will exist forever, because I believe humans are spiritual beings having a material experience, not the other way around.  However, I do expect there will come a point when we are all finished with this plane of existence.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline jdwheeler42

  • Global Moderator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 3339
    • View Profile
    • Going Upslope
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2017, 10:14:04 AM »
Wow, go to work for a day and this small quiet blog goes crazy!
Good thought provoking threads. Lots of incorrect assumption, but we cant all be right all the time. Not even RE. I am still trying to catch him out....
Quote
No, what we need here is Rainbow Shitting Unicorns or the Ferengi arriving in Starships loaded with DiLithium Crystals and Gold Pressed Latinum.
There is no solution to this problem here on Earth other than vast numbers of DEAD PEOPLE.  None.  Live with it..
RE

Yep, there are plenty of people not only hoping for solutions much more improbable than unicorns and space ships,  but actually relying on them. They are plan A, B, C and D to get through what lays ahead!
I think the problem here, to borrow from Douglas Adams, is confusing impossible with infinitely improbable.  It's possible that a meteorite could fall out of the sky and strike Donald Trump and kill him; meteorites fall out of the sky every day, and one could just happen to land where Donald Trump was standing.  The fact that it hasn't happened in all of recorded history doesn't mean it couldn't happen.  But it is infinitely improbable, and you shouldn't stand around hoping for a meteorite.

And I agree with JRM, that with the right spiritual transformation, there does not need to be a massive die-off.  But I would definitely rate aliens coming and rescuing us with new technology as significantly more probably than the requisite transformation happening before a die-off occurs.  I'm just hoping that it does occur before the die-off is complete; still not likely, but I think it is a worthy goal to strive for, one that has some chance of success.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2017, 12:12:36 PM »
First the monetary sytem will collapse.
Next, the corporations will all vanish with no revenue.
Next the Illuminati Pigmen will all suicide as their fortunes, privilege and power disappear.
Next, all the Sheeple will die with no corporations providing them with food.
Finally, all that will be left are DINERS! 
Then we will evolve into a new species, Homo Diners Diners.  :icon_sunny:

The chances of a miraculous Stick Save preventing a massive die off of Homo Sap are infinitesimally small.  The more reasonable question to try to solve than how to prevent such a die off is how to manage it once it gets rolling?  Who should die first?   How to make sure the correct evil people who deserve to die end up dead and only the good people remain alive?

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline jdwheeler42

  • Global Moderator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 3339
    • View Profile
    • Going Upslope
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2017, 12:27:31 PM »
You're going to have to wait for the book.  I promise, it's worth the wait.  It shall not be long a wait.

If I began to tell it here it would create all sorts of havoc for me that I'm not yet ready for, 'cause it needs the book -- all of its chapters, which can only be critiqued as a whole, having read the book.

... Having read the book...

... I wish I could turn you on ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usNsCeOV4GM

Give me two years.  It should be out about then ... in print.  And free online. If I get my way.
I just hope the world gives you two years....

you can sign me up for a copy right now.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline John of Wallan

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 584
  • You bloody galah!
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2017, 06:04:23 PM »
1st of all, I think RE is pretty good with the order of things, if a bit vague with timelines, up to a point. Throw in destruction of ecosystems either from climate change, war , resource depletion or something else, and I wonder how long Homo Dinerians will survive.

Remote Amazonian tribes wont survive if the amazon burns for cheap burger meat or as a result of drought.

To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical. To bet your life, the life of your children and the life of everyone else including me,  on a belief system devoid of facts is folly. Weather you want to accept it or not, you may be wrong. You have no idea how many times I have had this discussion with door knocking self righteous bigots, who keep telling me their special invisible friend will frown upon me if I don't get down on bended knee and grovel.

I hope the facts being presented are being misinterpreted by everyone involved, including myself.
That is I hope I am wrong.

Hoping for something does not make it so. I would be a lot richer for a start, and a lot of peoples health would be different. Some better, some worse...  ;D

Yes we really are clutching at straws to invoke the infinitely improbable solution.

JOW

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2017, 08:54:38 PM »
1st of all, I think RE is pretty good with the order of things, if a bit vague with timelines, up to a point. Throw in destruction of ecosystems either from climate change, war , resource depletion or something else, and I wonder how long Homo Dinerians will survive.

Remote Amazonian tribes wont survive if the amazon burns for cheap burger meat or as a result of drought.

To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical. To bet your life, the life of your children and the life of everyone else including me,  on a belief system devoid of facts is folly. Weather you want to accept it or not, you may be wrong. You have no idea how many times I have had this discussion with door knocking self righteous bigots, who keep telling me their special invisible friend will frown upon me if I don't get down on bended knee and grovel.

I hope the facts being presented are being misinterpreted by everyone involved, including myself.
That is I hope I am wrong.

Hoping for something does not make it so. I would be a lot richer for a start, and a lot of peoples health would be different. Some better, some worse...  ;D

Yes we really are clutching at straws to invoke the infinitely improbable solution.

JOW

I am deliberately vague on Timelines.  Timelines are the toughest bear for a a Nostradamus.  :icon_scratch:  Even the original Nostradamus was cagey with his timelines.  I haven't been wrong on a single thing I predicted since going into the Nostradamus Bizness in 2009.  I made the mistake early of predicting the timelines, I no longer do that, only event ordering.  This keeps my Seer reputation intact.

Far as how long Homo Dinerens will last after TSHTF in corporeal form, that is an open question on the timeline, but I will make the Bold Prediction it will be no more than 300M Years.  That is how long before the Sun is emitting too much radiation for Eukaryotic organisms to survive on the surface of the earth.  It will probably be less time than that though, since we will probably run into a Planet Killer asteroid first.

Far as whether Homo Dinerens  exists Spiritually outside of the Corporeal Diner Shell, evidence suggests to me that Diners are Eternal Transcedental Organisms that exist in the Twilight Zone of Information, and who only take on corporeal form so they can keyboard.  Homo Dinerens is like Schrodinger's Cat, and both exists and does not exist at the same time.  Homo Dinerens lives by the Uncertainty Principle of Life, which states that if you know the Position of a Diner, you cannot know haw fast he is moving, and if you know the Speed of a Diner, you can't pinpoint his position on any topic at all.

We call this neighborhood "The Diner Zone".

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/5ymjp2uIBws" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/5ymjp2uIBws</a>

Hopefully the future has now been clarified.

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline luciddreams

  • Global Moderator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 3497
    • View Profile
    • Epiphany Now
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2017, 09:07:21 PM »

To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical. To bet your life, the life of your children and the life of everyone else including me,  on a belief system devoid of facts is folly. Weather you want to accept it or not, you may be wrong. You have no idea how many times I have had this discussion with door knocking self righteous bigots, who keep telling me their special invisible friend will frown upon me if I don't get down on bended knee and grovel.


JOW

I would say a very healthy majority of my spiritual "beliefs" are not beliefs at all.  To me they are facts.  I do have some that are "beliefs," like reincarnation is one of them.  I believe it on faith, but I have good REASON for believing it based on my own personal experience of life up to this point...my 37th year.  My factual spiritual beliefs come from my own experience of them as realities. 

Another good example of this, at least for me, is my "belief" in the astral or "real time double," as Robert Bruce (author of Astral Dynamics) calls it).  JOW, he's an Australian, if you have not heard of him you should check him out.  I met him in person a few years back.  Anyways, back to topic, I have the "belief" that my astral body and real time double is real because I have experienced them many times.  It is a reality, albeit one much different than the automaton, meat suit, Matrix, fattened on processed sugars,  fat, and other such processed non-food salty bovine chicken butt holes that we feed our sacred body on, reality that so many spend their lives stewing in.

What I mean is, we destroy our bodies on all of this poison because we're plugged into this reality that is not reality.  It'd devoid of nature.  We have removed the nature from our food and what it is to be human, and our reality has become a nightmare that persists.  It's a state brought on by processed fakeness.  Their is a lot of wisdom in the saying "you are what you eat."  It's a state that people take as reality, because it is reality, a really stupid and shitty one that's composed of digital fake reality.

So back to belief, and how the meandering word salad I've just strung together all comes together; my "belief" in the astral body and real time double are not really beliefs, are they?  Because they have been proven to be reality to me by my empirical experience of them.  One could argue that those experiences maybe are not reality, but one can't argue that they are not facts to me.  They are very real facts which I have experienced, and seek to routinely experience.  The most real thing that ever happened to me was when I had my first incubated out of body experience. 

I was an atheist and it changed my life.  I may still be an atheist...it's another very complicated topic to discuss.  I believe it may be possible, and likely, that reality has just always existed...without a "creator."  Reality just is, and always has been. 

I suppose arguing about "belief" can be a slippery slope, but it's one I've always enjoyed.  It really is where philosophy sets sail. 

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42050
    • View Profile
Re: Thoughts & Ideas in the Philosophical World of Doom
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2017, 09:16:52 PM »

To say humans will always exist as we are spiritual beings is a cop out too. How do you know?
A belief based on ideas and feeling, not facts is called faith. May be true, but I see no proof and as such am sceptical. To bet your life, the life of your children and the life of everyone else including me,  on a belief system devoid of facts is folly. Weather you want to accept it or not, you may be wrong. You have no idea how many times I have had this discussion with door knocking self righteous bigots, who keep telling me their special invisible friend will frown upon me if I don't get down on bended knee and grovel.


JOW

I would say a very healthy majority of my spiritual "beliefs" are not beliefs at all.  To me they are facts.  I do have some that are "beliefs," like reincarnation is one of them.  I believe it on faith, but I have good REASON for believing it based on my own personal experience of life up to this point...my 37th year.  My factual spiritual beliefs come from my own experience of them as realities. 

Another good example of this, at least for me, is my "belief" in the astral or "real time double," as Robert Bruce (author of Astral Dynamics) calls it).  JOW, he's an Australian, if you have not heard of him you should check him out.  I met him in person a few years back.  Anyways, back to topic, I have the "belief" that my astral body and real time double is real because I have experienced them many times.  It is a reality, albeit one much different than the automaton, meat suit, Matrix, fattened on processed sugars,  fat, and other such processed non-food salty bovine chicken butt holes that we feed our sacred body on, reality that so many spend their lives stewing in.

What I mean is, we destroy our bodies on all of this poison because we're plugged into this reality that is not reality.  It'd devoid of nature.  We have removed the nature from our food and what it is to be human, and our reality has become a nightmare that persists.  It's a state brought on by processed fakeness.  Their is a lot of wisdom in the saying "you are what you eat."  It's a state that people take as reality, because it is reality, a really stupid and shitty one that's composed of digital fake reality.

So back to belief, and how the meandering word salad I've just strung together all comes together; my "belief" in the astral body and real time double are not really beliefs, are they?  Because they have been proven to be reality to me by my empirical experience of them.  One could argue that those experiences maybe are not reality, but one can't argue that they are not facts to me.  They are very real facts which I have experienced, and seek to routinely experience.  The most real thing that ever happened to me was when I had my first incubated out of body experience. 

I was an atheist and it changed my life.  I may still be an atheist...it's another very complicated topic to discuss.  I believe it may be possible, and likely, that reality has just always existed...without a "creator."  Reality just is, and always has been. 

I suppose arguing about "belief" can be a slippery slope, but it's one I've always enjoyed.  It really is where philosophy sets sail.

Beliefs are thoughts, which undeniably exist but have no substance.  A thought once generated is Eternal.  So there is no doubt we are all Eternal Beings, since we all had thoughts.  Well, most of us anyhow. lol.

RE
Save As Many As You Can

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
25 Replies
7578 Views
Last post June 09, 2012, 11:00:49 AM
by RE
4 Replies
733 Views
Last post July 18, 2018, 01:34:27 PM
by azozeo
0 Replies
237 Views
Last post August 29, 2020, 09:16:30 AM
by knarf