AuthorTopic: What you should not say in public...  (Read 5754 times)

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2017, 06:46:48 PM »
How many people can make that distinction?  Does he allude to that big knockdown?  It would be a good tool to use. You are right I'm just tired and grumpy but listening to another recitation of how fucked we are gets long.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline luciddreams

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2017, 06:49:04 PM »
Don't you see it as two faces of the same narrative? What's the difference between "were dead" and "I cant see us doing what needs to be done so most likely we're dead". Did I miss the hint of hope? I'll admit I skimmed.

HUGE difference!

It's the difference between 10,000 Human Souls being left standing and ZERO left standing.

In the last big knockdown, 10,000 Human souls or 1000 Breeding Pairs were able to repopulate up to the current 7.3B.  This is established in the genetic record. With ZERO, you got NO CHANCE to repopulate.

This is a very crucial difference.

RE

Agreed!

But most importantly, our bent provides for logical hopium.  It may be unlikely that you will survive, but it's possible to believe that you and yours might win that lottery.  No ticket need be bought! 

I believe I can survive, by luck if nothing else.  I believe I can do that with my wife and two boys.  It's possible, and so I'll believe it.  Why not?  The alternative is gun powder powered personal genocide  ;D

I have an extra special chance at survival because I'm cultivating a skill that the future needs.  Currently there is a global need for bamboo experts.  Not so much in Merika...yet...I'm working on changing that. 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 06:51:00 PM by luciddreams »

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2017, 06:54:58 PM »
And charcoal gasification experts.  I know hopium is hardwired.  It's activated by parenthood.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline luciddreams

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2017, 07:05:56 PM »
And charcoal gasification experts.  I know hopium is hardwired.  It's activated by parenthood.

Indeed, I'd love to have a charcoal gasification expert at the first Sunstead! 

And yes, parenthood definitely activates hopium.  Sort of doesn't work without hope...parenting.   

I've got to believe there is a point to all of the hard work of parenting.  What is the point if there is nowhere for my intelligent, well adjusted, and talented kids to thrive? 

Offline RE

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2017, 07:19:51 PM »
How many people can make that distinction?  Does he allude to that big knockdown?  It would be a good tool to use. You are right I'm just tired and grumpy but listening to another recitation of how fucked we are gets long.

Only a real Doomer can make this distinction.  To most people, just a massive dieoff is too difficult to deal with and ponder on.

In this lecture, Geoff did not really explain how survival for some might be possible, but he and I have been discussing the topic for years now, since we met on Nature Bats Last and took this battle to Guy McPherson.  When I departed the commentariat there and cross posting my blogs there, so did Geoff and he switched from posting his blogs to NBL over to the Diner.  He doesn't run his own blog.

Our viewpoints are very similar.  He has his own focus on things like Tiny Homes.  The general message though is that if you want to be among the few survivors of this knockdown, you need to GTFO of the Big Shities and become as self-sufficient and resilient as you can be.  It's what you actually are doing in fact.

The main difference here I think is you tend to hold out more hopium that a larger population can survive and that a new economic system can be rebuilt similar techologically to this one in the aftermath of this collapse.  I definitely am not in that camp, and Geoff I think is not either, although he doesn't write on or speculate on the longer term like I do, so not sure there on what his opinion is on this.

RE
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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2017, 07:31:16 PM »
That more or less captures my view.  I would say several million spread over a planet is not large compared to 7 billion.  Looked at in terms of history the bottle neck probably involved a base population of a few million in a smaller area knocked down to 10000 so it's a similar percentage. In terms of the tech level we end up with I really don't know but JMG's long descent rang true to my ears.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline luciddreams

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2017, 07:32:38 PM »
That more or less captures my view.  I would say several million spread over a planet is not large compared to 7 billion.  Looked at in terms of history the bottle neck probably involved a base population of a few million in a smaller area knocked down to 10000 so it's a similar percentage. In terms of the tech level we end up with I really don't know but JMG's long descent rang true to my ears.

Mine to, as did The Ecotechnic Future

Offline RE

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2017, 07:47:04 PM »
That more or less captures my view.  I would say several million spread over a planet is not large compared to 7 billion.  Looked at in terms of history the bottle neck probably involved a base population of a few million in a smaller area knocked down to 10000 so it's a similar percentage. In terms of the tech level we end up with I really don't know but JMG's long descent rang true to my ears.

Mine to, as did The Ecotechnic Future

I think we will experience an Undershoot period where the population could drop as low as the single digit millions globally.  In the absence of fossil fuels, I think the planet can support 500M to 1B people.  We may rebound to that at some point.

I do not think that in the absence of FFs anything near like current technology can be maintained or rebuilt later.  Even maintaining 17th century tech is something of a stretch, although possible and I have that as second on my probabilities list.

RE
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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2017, 07:48:43 PM »
My problem with JMG's vision I think is his sounds more homogeneous than mine.  I see smaller groups maintaining a level of tech much higher then the norm. Other groupings returned to stone tools. I see humanity learning no lessons just doing the best their circumstances allow.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 04:15:38 AM by David B. »
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2017, 08:13:22 PM »
My problem with JMG's vision I think is his sounds more homogeneous then than mine.

SG Correction.  ;D

RE
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What you should not say in Public: The Presentation
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2017, 05:26:16 AM »


youtube-Logo-4gc2reddit-logoOff the lectern of Geoffrey Chia and the Diner Commentariat



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Published on The Doomstead Diner on March 14, 2017






Discuss this article at the Kitchen Sink inside the Diner



Notes from RE and the Diners



Last week, Dr Geoff Chia put up an article/announcement of a lecture he was giving at the Ecocenter in Queensland Oz on March 10th, which he fortunately got recorded so it can be more widely dispersed. You will find the lecture and the slides he used in the video above.  Also included here is an Audio only track you can download to your mp3 player or smartphone to play while you are gardening or biking to work, or sitting in traffic in your SUV on Diner Soundcloud.






The lecture has inspired some lively comentary Inside the Diner, here is a sample of that:



From Lucid Dreams:



Dr. Chia is a good speaker.



From RE



I agree, although after listening to the whole thing, I felt he was a little heavy handed.  Imagine if I pitched that spin at the convocation!  The movers & shakers would have looked at me like I was from Mars!  I wrote Geoff back I think he needs to take it down a notch for the Newbies.



From K-Dog



Why pander to the newbies?  The sooner one can accept the truth and reinvent themselves to carry on in spite of the doom before us the better!  Perhaps convincing people that massive change is coming but playing down without denial the misery and death part of the fate before us could wake up more people.  I will agree with that.



From Lucid Dreams



Speaking from experience with speaking to crowds about these topics, doesn't matter how much you down play it.  Most people are not going to recognize the information as valid because it amounts to pulling the rug out from under their sense of security.  People start marinating on the ramifications of Peak Oil and then they start to hyperventilate (only in their unconscious mind).  The unconscious mind then promptly kicks out the possibility of even entertaining the doomy notions presented.  Vaporware, scientists, renewable energy, and technotriumphalism coupled with the psychology of previous investment all finish the job of denial.



Simply put, it matter not how you present the information.  Whether you do it with a spoon full of sugar or with a fuckin' sledge hammer, the results are always the same…denial…



Unless the person is ready to accept the information…in which case they will likely have found that information by a simple google search.



From RE



I think there is a balance to be struck to begin opening the window without having them freak out and go into full denial mode.  Remember, a Spoonful of Sugar Makes the Medicine Go Down! :icon_sunny:






 



For more commentary or to post your own opinion, join us Inside the Diner for a Collapse Meal!



 



Offline K-Dog

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2017, 01:03:25 PM »
That more or less captures my view.  I would say several million spread over a planet is not large compared to 7 billion.  Looked at in terms of history the bottle neck probably involved a base population of a few million in a smaller area knocked down to 10000 so it's a similar percentage. In terms of the tech level we end up with I really don't know but JMG's long descent rang true to my ears.

People are not wired for a long descent. JMG forgets this.  Upon commencement of a long descent people will be stressed and that will bring on a quick demise.  History of collapsing civilizations in the Western Hemisphere shows that famine (loss of corn) brings on murderous violence and that will happen in our future as well.  Murderous violence is not consistent with a slow descent scenario.  Slow descent is fantasy.

Contemplate the likelyhood of a slow descent in a world of fascist dictators with nuclear weapons.  The nuclear weapons we have now and the fascist dictators we shall have soon.

Ka-Boom
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 01:40:55 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline RE

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Re: What you should not say in public...
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2017, 03:15:40 PM »
The nuclear weapons we have now and the fascist dictators we shall have soon.

Send in the Clowns...they're already here.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/KCE-Bijdvv0" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/KCE-Bijdvv0</a>

RE
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