AuthorTopic: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization  (Read 10834 times)

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2017, 11:42:52 AM »
No worries FM.  We currently have no trolls on the Diner to worry about. 

Ox, not sure I know what comment you are talking about where I was cruel to you?   :icon_scratch:

Anyways, whatever, I have no beef with you  :) Or any other current Diner for that matter. 

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2017, 12:01:10 PM »
Welcome again Farmer.  I do remember you from Club Orlov when I used to drop in there.  I recall I pretty much liked most of what you wrote there and I also know you from the Archdruid report.  There are a few of us here who don't really care for Dimitry O. having had extremely unsavory and rude communications with his narcissisim in the past.  Personally hell will freeze over before I ever go to Club Orlov again; but that is a personal problem which has nothing to do with you.

A difference between this place and the 'Club' is that Dimitry picks and chooses what he decides to post based on his liking or agreement with a post's intellectual content or not, or if it supports his various financial endeavors.  Dissent is not allowed at Club Orlov and Orlov's moderation is actually more censorship than making sure a comment meets minimum standards of a code of conduct. 

Here things are different.  We screen for intellectual content based on a post having any or not and not if we agree or disagree with particular points of view.  We welcome dissent as long as it is honestly based and reasonably factually sound.  Dissent that is the result of pure trollery is discouraged as it should be, and if it a member has a chronic dishonest agenda they may be banned but the bar on getting banned has been pretty high in the past.  We don't allow diners to be rude to each other so few commenters from Kunstler's blog would make it here for instance.  I'm an exception who does fit in here, perhaps because I am a real person.  Most of us here know that many avatars at Kunstler's blog are actually government employees fishing for terrorists and not real people.

I wanted to welcome you again because I recall you were one of the best brains at Club Orlov and I liked reading you.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 12:12:23 PM by K-Dog »
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2017, 12:15:17 PM »
Most of us here know that many avatars at Kunstler's blog are actually government employees fishing for terrorists and not real people.


No shit!  You know this to be factually true?  I never post on Kunstler's blog.  I was a member for several years at the kunstlercast forum though.  I think I got banned when I mentioned the Diner, but I was a regular there for several years. 

Offline RE

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2017, 12:17:14 PM »
Being new to the forum side of this site, I'm only recently digging in to read old threads to get a feel for the various members, so I don't know the histories or relationships between them.  Again, I'm not good at discerning where teasing becomes meanness.  If I find myself being harassed in an unfriendly, uncivilized manner I will take my grub in a to-go box and go find some nice park to dine.  Frankly, GO, I'm wondering a little bit why you are still sitting at the counter; the accusation that "You're a disrespectful and insulting person" has not (yet?) been my observation.  Perhaps if I hang around long enough I will learn otherwise.  I hope not.

Basically, the only person currently contributing to the Diner Forum who doesn't get along is GO.  The issue is he hates my guts because I am politically left, I am not a Gold Bug and will periodically dissect why it will not function as money in a post-collapse world and because I make the rules on the Diner. He has insulted me over and over again for years, but I let him stay anyhow.  I periodically will put him on moderation, but then when I take it off all he does is complain about the "censorship" on the Diner, which is one of the least censored forums in the collapse blogosphere.  Both JMG and Kunstler are far more heavy handed with moderation than I am, K-Dog gets his posts regularly deleted by Kunstler and mine were regularly deleted by JMG until I quit posting there because of that.

Beyond that, GO calls anyone who agrees with me a syncophant, he's the only right wing Trump supporter on the Forum, and since we bash Trump all the time this bugs him.  So then he'll get general and call all "lefties" as being "dim", which applies to just about every other Diner to some degree, although none are as far left as I am.

Anyhow, hopefully you can tolerate the periodic vitriole that comes off his keyboard.  Otherwise these days, things are fairly calm around here.  :icon_sunny:

RE
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Offline monsta666

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2017, 12:19:56 PM »
Welcome to the forums Greg. I hope you do stay longer and enjoy what this forum has to offer. I do understand there can be arguments that take place periodically but the general style of the diner as K-Dog already highlighted is to allow all points of view to be expressed. Unfortunately a conflict of opinion can lead to some arguments some of which can get a little heated. The main basic requirement when making a point - for the most part anyway - is that people maintain a civil dialogue when criticising others ideas. Above all criticise the argument and not the person. At least that is the theory, in practice a degree of leeway is tolerated. It can sometimes be a fine line between balancing free speech with civility and I do honestly feel this is one of the few places in the collapse community where people can actively challenge the prevailing spin on the board without being censored.

Offline Farmer McGregor

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #65 on: February 19, 2017, 12:51:07 PM »
Monsta, Lucid, RE & K-Dog,
Thanks for your encouraging words.

Regarding those other sites; like K-Dog, I have also lapsed on even checking in on Club Orlov due to the limited scope of discussion along with a particular slant that is not to my taste.  JHK's blog is a good short read because he is such a wordsmith.  The commenters are mostly jerks.  K-Dog, I gotta tell ya that when I have time to scan the comments there I scroll quickly looking for two things: the big green line that indicates that Kunstler himself has posted a reply, usually cuz' somebody pissed him off, and for your avatar because I like to see what you have to say.  And I know that Greer's blog is heavily moderated for sometimes trivial reasons, but it does result in a lot of intelligent commentary.

RE, I hope that my concerns for GO have not impugned you in any way.  Obviously, I don't have enough history here to appreciate how your relationship has developed.  I'll catch on if I stick around long enough, though my presence will be spotty at times since I have a small business to operate here on my mini-farm which provides my meager cash income so that I can also pursue my prepsteading (time-out, SG, it's a made-up word!) endeavors.  Winter affords me some free time to sit at this keyboard; growing season not so much.

Again, thanks to all, and keep up the good fight!
--Radio?
For years we have let ourselves believe that as long as we have money we will have food. This is a mistake. The government will bring forth no food by providing hundreds of billions of dollars to the agribusiness industry.  --Wendell Berry after the 2008 crash

Offline RE

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2017, 01:17:25 PM »
I have a small business to operate here on my mini-farm which provides my meager cash income so that I can also pursue my prepsteading (time-out, SG, it's a made-up word!) endeavors.  Winter affords me some free time to sit at this keyboard; growing season not so much.

Made up words don't get a ticket from the Spelling Gestapo.  :icon_mrgreen:  "Doomstead" is a made up word of course.

What kind of small biz do you run off the farm?

RE
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2017, 01:25:34 PM »
Most of us here know that many avatars at Kunstler's blog are actually government employees fishing for terrorists and not real people.


No shit!  You know this to be factually true?  I never post on Kunstler's blog.  I was a member for several years at the kunstlercast forum though.  I think I got banned when I mentioned the Diner, but I was a regular there for several years.

I was hoping you would let me pass.  We both know each other from there but we have never mentioned it.  Going back a long way I saw you there many times.  As to it being factually true the answer is yes.  I know it like a squirrel being snatched off the ground by a bald eagle knows he is going to be lunch.  You have also posted good stuff over the years lucid but when I posted last I had to get back to my weekend stuff.  I knew I should have mentioned you.  My bad.

There was a woman or at least the avatar of a real person who went by Wage Laborer.  She used to comment daily for years.  Suddenly she stopped.  She made a last post that she had been approached by a man in a black suit at a shopping mall.  It totally freaked her out.  When I had my first encounter with the jet black suit I learned the shirts were always bright white.  Even the homeland security operatives follow the F.B.I. dress code but with a little less attention to detail.

I suspect collapse aficionados and Diners are listed in dissent watch training manuals next to members of P.E.T.A. as a subgroup of Eco-Terrorists.  Some reasons we are there:

  • This group has great dissatisfaction with the existing fabric of society and has potential to spawn extremists.
  • This group is acting on information verified by the Pentagon and represents a potential threat to the plan.
  • Intellectual types are attracted to this group, consequently this group must be watched as they could organize.

But whatever, as much as Trump claims he wants to cut government fat the surveillance and we will fuck with you if we feel like it paychecks I'm sure are quite secure.

Perhaps should we ever have driverless cars we could find ourselves suddenly rerouted on a morning commute and driven through the gate of a razor wire fenced lot.  Once inside the cars shuts down opens the doors and the handcuffs come out.  Driverless cars may be a great advancement to some after all.  Some would call this progress.  Driverless cars can eliminate the court system and leave tire ruts on the back of due process.  Perfect draconian efficiency.  Do not pass go and go directly to jail.  Progress.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 02:08:59 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Farmer McGregor

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2017, 02:58:10 PM »
I have a small business to operate here on my mini-farm which provides my meager cash income so that I can also pursue my prepsteading (time-out, SG, it's a made-up word!) endeavors.  Winter affords me some free time to sit at this keyboard; growing season not so much.

What kind of small biz do you run off the farm?

RE
Actually on the farm.
We are on what remains of one of the oldest homesteads in northern Colorado.  In the late forties the farming family figured out that they could put a gas pump in front of their vegetable stand and sell gas to the passing traffic -- the road used to be a combination of two state highways which were re-routed onto a bypass in the eighties -- so they bought a Standard Service franchise.  Shortly thereafter they replaced the vegy stand with a bona-fide gas station building, quit farming, and sold off most of the land.  After the bypass was built, reduced traffic flow killed the gas station, so the building was re-purposed as a feed store serving the local ruralites. (Oh shit, here comes the SG...)  The big shed that previously served farm purposes became the feed warehouse.

We came here over a decade ago and inherited the feed store business since 1) It is the only reasonable use for the buildings that the community will support -- not much demand for any other retail business around here; for that matter, not all that much demand for THIS retail business.  But more importantly 2) If we undertake a 'Change Of Occupancy' to a commercial structure we become subject to The Forces Of Building & Zoning Department of the County Government.  A change of occupancy is their opportunity to make you bend over and pay their salaries through permit fees to bring everything up to modern code.  You know, important stuff like handicap access and restrooms for employees (even if you don't have any) and traffic access/egress parking landscaping bullshit.  In effect, they hold us hostage to a 'grandfathered' occupancy.  Unless we want to spend megabucks to do anything different, our only other choice is to shut it down.  So a feed store it is.

The upside is that we have developed a tremendous relationship with a lot of the local community.  They like us here.  And it is a ready market for our excess agri-products, some of which the Official Food Police would have a cow (yes, some of it is home-processed beef and chicken) if they knew about it.  We also do a lot of teaching on numerous topics all germane to the collapse narrative, homesteading, food & health, etc.  So it's not all bad.

Yesterday I was snooping what, IIRC you called the Diner Convocation, which you boys held some time back, and was thinking how if you ever want to do something like that again -- or anyone is in the area for any reason -- I would enjoy hosting a get-together.
Cheers,
Greg aka FM aka Radio, unofficial self-appointed junior SG
For years we have let ourselves believe that as long as we have money we will have food. This is a mistake. The government will bring forth no food by providing hundreds of billions of dollars to the agribusiness industry.  --Wendell Berry after the 2008 crash

Offline RE

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2017, 03:21:55 PM »
Yesterday I was snooping what, IIRC you called the Diner Convocation, which you boys held some time back, and was thinking how if you ever want to do something like that again -- or anyone is in the area for any reason -- I would enjoy hosting a get-together.
Cheers,
Greg aka FM aka Radio, unofficial self-appointed junior SG

Thanks!  That's a great offer FM!  We may take you up on it!  How many acres do you have?  Can you put up some pics of the farm?

What do you have besides Chickens?  Pigs?  Goats? Cows?  Eddie is raising Mangalitsa pigs, a Hungarian breed.

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #70 on: February 19, 2017, 03:34:59 PM »
Hi Radio -

This place is basically safe.  G.O. isn't really a bad guy, he's just in need of some political education is all.  'Course, he likely thinks the same of me.

I hope Radio sticks as your nickname.  It's better than Nick, and has a fun relationship to the initials, FM.

I'm intrigued by your rural way of life.  I used be a country boy for reals (uh-oh, spelling police alert!). Somehow the small city life grabbed me, but I miss having wild animals as my nearest neighbors.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Farmer McGregor

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #71 on: February 19, 2017, 05:54:42 PM »
I hope Radio sticks as your nickname.  It's better than Nick, and has a fun relationship to the initials, FM.
I agree about Radio -- it's fun.  And as I mentioned elsewhere, it harks back to my days as a ham radio operator, something I never lost my love for.

But 'Nick'???

I'm intrigued by your rural way of life.  I used be a country boy for reals (uh-oh, spelling police alert!). Somehow the small city life grabbed me, but I miss having wild animals as my nearest neighbors.
The rural/farm life has its pros and cons.  Hard work, no escape from chores that have to be done even in blizzards or when you're sick or your back is killing you (one of my occasional problems).  And of course, it's nearly impossible to support yourself off the land unless you scale up and become industrial; right now, the cost of food in this country doesn't even come close to the true cost of production, so we compete against an unfair government subsidized slave labored behemoth.  I'm focusing on learning how to do it well in the expectation that as collapse progresses that behemoth is going to go down.  And maybe go down hard and fast.

On the other hand, I just came back in from evening chores where I was marveling at the smell in the wind, the little storm that is moving past, the view of the mountains from out in the back pasture...  marvelous stuff.
I give thanks for it.

...if you ever want to do something like that again -- or anyone is in the area for any reason -- I would enjoy hosting a get-together.

Thanks!  That's a great offer FM!  We may take you up on it!  How many acres do you have?  Can you put up some pics of the farm?

What do you have besides Chickens?  Pigs?  Goats? Cows?  Eddie is raising Mangalitsa pigs, a Hungarian breed.

RE
We have 7 acres in the "urban/rural interface" area outside the largest northern Colorado city.  It is the farmstead from what was a large farm originally owned as the first land claim in the area by a French settler.  Someday I can do a picture essay, just not now.

We have way too many chickens (I've been butchering batches of them when weather permits, we're down to about fifty) and way too many Jerseys: Our original momma cow that we've retired and I will be cramming her into the freezers as hamburger just as soon as I can get some preparations done for that (we do this ourselves, so we have to get a lot of ducks in a row); her two older sons which are also destined for freezers, but we have made arrangements with licensed processors so that we can sell the beef (thankfully! I really don't want to do them at home) -- incidentally, Jerseys are fawn brown colored so these boys are my Golden Oxen!; a daughter that is our only milkable (no, SG, no) cow but is dried up since she's in her third trimester; and three youngsters that will grow up to be milkers or beef.

Learned that waterfowl can be really foul; pigs and goats don't work here yet due to infrastructure and fencing issues.  Furthermore, other than pigs, these can be hard to cost justify.  Since we be way po', everything has to pay for itself somehow.  Can't have many useless eaters.  That's why I'm retiring a bunch of old laying hens.  Fortunately we have a good market for organically fed stewing hens: they make terrific bone broth.

If I get ambitious to do so, I could write some interesting posts for the doomsteading forum.  Some might be provocative, like "Why I Dumped Aquaponics".  Heck, that statement alone could provoke a firestorm.

'Nuff said.
--Greg.  FM.  Radio.     Nick???
« Last Edit: February 19, 2017, 06:11:14 PM by Farmer McGregor »
For years we have let ourselves believe that as long as we have money we will have food. This is a mistake. The government will bring forth no food by providing hundreds of billions of dollars to the agribusiness industry.  --Wendell Berry after the 2008 crash

Offline g

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #72 on: February 19, 2017, 06:57:26 PM »
Hi Radio -

This place is basically safe.  G.O. isn't really a bad guy, he's just in need of some political education is all.  'Course, he likely thinks the same of me.

I hope Radio sticks as your nickname.  It's better than Nick, and has a fun relationship to the initials, FM.

I'm intrigued by your rural way of life.  I used be a country boy for reals (uh-oh, spelling police alert!). Somehow the small city life grabbed me, but I miss having wild animals as my nearest neighbors.

Thank You JRM. Your comment was very much appreciated.                                                                  Regards, GO

Offline JRM

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #73 on: February 19, 2017, 07:02:41 PM »
I have constantly praised and it is another well known fact that I admire many Leftist. May I just mention Chris Hedges, Jimmy Carter, Robert Reich, their are many others. That again is a matter of fact and is on record.

Chris Hedges?  Really? Wow!  What is it in Hedges that appeals to you?   If I'm to the left of you, Hedges must occupy another world.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline g

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Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
« Reply #74 on: February 19, 2017, 07:19:15 PM »
I have constantly praised and it is another well known fact that I admire many Leftist. May I just mention Chris Hedges, Jimmy Carter, Robert Reich, their are many others. That again is a matter of fact and is on record.

Chris Hedges?  Really? Wow!  What is it in Hedges that appeals to you?   If I'm to the left of you, Hedges must occupy another world.

His idea that we have a Moral obligation and imperative to rebel against what the government is doing to us is very appealing to me.

It also very difficult for me to not admire someone with a magnificent brain that he possesses. Brilliance of the kind that gentleman has leaves me awestruck.

His personal life of much good works is also difficult not to admire. He teaches is prison to criminals and really helps and sets many of them on to a better life. He becomes a father figure to many of them A very constructive worthwhile person.

You will always find him at any rally against oppression, he is always there lending his support. An admirable American Citizen with doing the right thing on his mind constantly.

What a speaker as well spellbinding So much to like about him. :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:


                                                   



 

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