Doomstead Diner Menu => The Kitchen Sink => Topic started by: Guest on February 18, 2017, 02:09:24 AM

Title: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Guest on February 18, 2017, 02:09:24 AM


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Published on The Daily Impact  January 30 & February 2, 2017






Discuss these articles at the Kitchen Sink inside the Diner




Driverless Cars: Their Time Will Never Come







 



 



 



 



 



 



The driverless car. An idea whose time will not come. Ever.




Can we just get real here for a minute? Our streets and highways are never going to be populated by a significant number of driverless cars. Any more than our lives are going to be enriched by attentive robots exhibiting artificial intelligence. We are no closer to deploying fleets of driverless cars now than we were to having a flying car in every garage, as the illustrated predictions in Popular Mechanics and the like insisted through the 50s and 60s. And 70s and 80s. (I should have warned you about the disorientation a sudden dose of realism can have; sit down and breath into a paper bag, it will pass.)



The deafening hype we are hearing about driverless cars is the sound of an entire industry trying to administer mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to itself. Everything we hear about the auto industry is good (“2016 U.S.Auto Sales Set New High Record”) because everything we hear comes from the auto industry. And yet its healthy glow is beginning to take on the ghastly sheen of a dead mackerel.



Ever since President Obama saved the auto industry from meltdown in 2008 (yes, he did, you can look it up) it has been the leading light of American industrial activity. Sales bottomed out at fewer than 10 million units in 2009, but have risen steadily since, to an all time high of 17.5 million units, in 2016. What could be wrong with this picture?



Couple of things. First, these sales were accomplished by offering low- and no-interest loans, low- and no-down-payment loans, then extending the length of the loans to lower the payments still more. The average term of a car loan is now five and a half years, with six- and seven-year loans ever more frequent. Still this wasn’t enough. To get the numbers they wanted they had to start making loans to less and less credit-worthy buyers. Before long, in order to keep the big wheel turning, lenders were bundling car loans and securitizing them for more cash to lend to sub-prime borrowers. The sales were booked. The loans were booked (with everyone involved collecting their commissions in cash).  But the cars haven’t been paid for yet, and now the default rates are in the stratosphere. According to MarketWatch:




The number of subprime auto loans sinking into delinquency hit their highest level since 2010 in the third quarter, with roughly 6 million individuals at least 90 days late on their payments. It’s behavior much like that seen in the months heading into the 2007-2009 recession, according to data from Federal Reserve Bank of New York researchers. “The worsening in the delinquency rate of subprime auto loans is pronounced, with a notable increase during the past few years,” the researchers…said Wednesday.




Nobody could have seen that coming.



Another thing. When the factories ship cars and trucks to the dealers, to sit on lots for no one knows how long, they count them as “sold” even though the dealer has the right to return them. At the end of 2016, a banner year for “sales,” an all-time high of almost four million cars were sitting on dealer lots unsold.



So despite the glossy paint on its exterior,  the auto industry is rapidly rusting out from within, and desperately needs its Next Big Thing to appear NOW. Hybrids were it for a while, but gas prices went down and huge SUVs rule the road again. Electric plug-ins? Naw. See the fate of the hybrid. But self-driving cars? Now you got some buzz, man. This could be it.



But desperation generates its own buzz. The makers of computers and cell phones and tablets have all been seeking the Next Big Thing with equal desperation for years. A few years ago it was The Smart Watch. Drum roll!!! Fanfare!!! Launch!!! Nobody bought ‘em. Remember Google Glass? Gone. Virtual reality is currently having its 15-minute audition. The Samsung Galaxy Note 7? Crashed and burned. Literally.



None of these products came to market in response to a need people had. You know, like when they invented the fly swatter. These were things that engineers and marketers believed the general public could be enticed to buy. And that used to work, back when we had a middle class in America with money to spare. Then, you could make a go of pet rocks with the right advertising campaign.



But driverless cars? Let’s try one though experiment. It’s a couple years from now, and you call an Uber car, and when it pulls to the curb and waits for you to get in, there is no one in the car, and there are no controls in the car. Are you going to get in?



Me neither.



 



That Which Kills Me Also Costs Me Money: Study







 



 



 



 



 



 



Blackout 1965: Think of it — all those people trapped in all those apartments, needing to know: how much is this going to cost?




According to a new study, if a solar storm blew out most of America’s electric grid, it would cost us $41.5 billion dollars. The worst scenario calculated in the study would affect 66 per cent of the population, as well as the nation’s manufacturing, government and finance sectors. Other countries would be affected as well, but we don’t care about that, the study simply created a seven-billion-dollar chump-change jar for the foreigners. After putting a price tag on every imaginable aspect of Apocalypse Now, one of the study’s authors said somberly, “We felt it was important.” He found it “surprising” that prior studies — yes, there are prior studies making the same calculations — lacked “transparency” and missed entirely some direct and indirect costs.



Encyclopedic as it may be, and transparent as well — you can see right through it — the study raises at least as many questions as it answers [Please disengage your fake-news sensor and engage your irony alert]:




But here’s the real question. Have we as a culture become so devoid of human values and empathy that we no longer even have the language to discuss the meaning of anything without assigning cash values? Where are the studies concluding that an event like this would put us all instantly back in the Stone Age, that most of us would die in the first year, that our civilization might never recover? 



In our world, knowledge has been industrialized. Armies of researchers often funded by the companies that will benefit from a right conclusion, delve into everything from the health benefits of food to the effects of chemicals, from evaluating stocks and bonds to  the economic cost of homophobia. If the conclusion is wrong — that is, of no benefit to the sponsors — it can be buried, and alternate studies funded. See “Exxon and climate-change research.”



Rice University researchers have calculated the cost of carbon emissions, and called for a compensatory carbon tax. In other words, never mind the visible pall of pollution, the coughing children, the elevated cancer rates, the increasingly obvious destabilization of the planet’s climate, let’s figure out how many dollars it might cost and impose a fine, in dollars. Similarly, Stanford researchers have estimated the high cost of global climate change. Duh!



As with all crimes against humanity, we must first ask cui bono? Who benefits? Studies cost money, often big money. Promoting their results to a gullible public costs really big money. Somebody is getting something for all that money. [Note to self: Apply for grant to conduct large-scale study of the cost of studying the cost of things.]



Without conducting a study, I can only surmise that the beneficiaries of studies such as the solar-storm accounting are the very industries it studied. If we focused in detail on the human cost of such a Black Swan event — that is, an event of extremely low probability but extremely high cost — and the relative ease with which the industries could prevent it, we would be storming their gates. Or at least trolling them on Twitter.  



But put a price tag on it, any price tag, and our tendency is to think, “Yeah, we could do that.” It doesn’t matter how big it is. Personally, I cannot get my head around any number that has more than six digits. I thought it was a private affliction, but it turns out to be pretty widespread.



Talk to any industry about its responsibility to the humans it is supposed to be serving, and to future generations of them, and it goes into a defensive crouch and insists that a corporation is not a person when it comes to ethics and responsibility. But threaten them with a future fine or cost, and the board meets, and says “Yeah, we could do that.” 



So that’s cui bono, baby.


Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 18, 2017, 08:49:37 AM
Quote
Can we just get real here for a minute? Our streets and highways are never going to be populated by a significant number of driverless cars. Any more than our lives are going to be enriched by attentive robots exhibiting artificial intelligence. We are no closer to deploying fleets of driverless cars now than we were to having a flying car in every garage, as the illustrated predictions in Popular Mechanics and the like insisted through the 50s and 60s. And 70s and 80s.

File this one right alongside 'colonists on mars' (let alone 'other habitable planets'), cryo-stasis, fusion reactors, high-rise greenhouses, 'the singularity', and so many other techno-fantasies.  The desperate straits of the auto industry in general should be a clue to the fact that there just isn't a market for super high-tech (read: super expensive) vehicles outside the bubble world of the 0.01%; there's hardly a market for less expensive cars or they wouldn't be offering those ridiculous loans.

Just more smoke and mirrors (bread and circuses) to keep the lumpen from focusing on reality, like that a decade from now we may not need the interstate highway system.

Great commentary.
--Greg
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 09:10:13 AM
like that a decade from now we may not need the interstate highway system.

I'd like to see this proposition detailed out a bit.  Why? How?
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 18, 2017, 09:16:53 AM
like that a decade from now we may not need the interstate highway system.

I'd like to see this proposition detailed out a bit.  Why? How?

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I had thought the Farmer was pointing out it was an absurd falsehood fabricated for the Dim to consume.

Hi Farmer, Welcome aboard the Diner.  :hi:
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Eddie on February 18, 2017, 09:36:01 AM
Welcome Greg.

My view is:

1. Driverless cars make some sense, because it makes NOT owning a car for an average urban/suburban denizen easier and less onerous. Companies like Uber have come up with a very good idea that is compatible with a world that already desperately needs to power down. Ride sharing, or just super cheap taxi transport, can compete against private car ownership as a transportation model.

2. For JIT delivery, driverless trucks make huge sense, because it cuts the cost way, way down by eliminating the need for humans constantly at the wheel. This overcomes the problem of (a) paying so much to humans just to be behind the wheel and (b) the wasted time they spend in enforced shut-down mode, sleeping at the truck stop.

The technology is already at a safety level that is superior to human driving, in spite of the news stories that jump on every mistake and bobble that occurs as the tech is rolled out.

This really isn't the tech of the future. It's the present. People are using it right now in test markets world wide. The biggest problem is pushback from existing businesses that will be wiped out by it.

If this BAU world keeps turning for another year, you'll see it begin to have a real impact.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/17/14652056/chevrolet-gm-bolt-lyft-autonomous-fleet-plans (http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/17/14652056/chevrolet-gm-bolt-lyft-autonomous-fleet-plans)

Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 10:09:57 AM
2. For JIT delivery, driverless trucks make huge sense, because it cuts the cost way, way down by eliminating the need for humans constantly at the wheel. This overcomes the problem of (a) paying so much to humans just to be behind the wheel and (b) the wasted time they spend in enforced shut-down mode, sleeping at the truck stop.

As robots and machines eliminate ever more humans from "the workforce," how are people supposed to "make a living"?  Will "unnecessary" people be warehoused in giant human warehouses, dwelling in 6'x6'x6' cubicles and fed "food paste" from tubes protruding from these cubicles? Or will they just be "euthanized"?
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 18, 2017, 10:12:20 AM
Welcome Greg.

My view is:

1. Driverless cars make some sense, because it makes NOT owning a car for an average urban/suburban denizen easier and less onerous. Companies like Uber have come up with a very good idea that is compatible with a world that already desperately needs to power down. Ride sharing, or just super cheap taxi transport, can compete against private car ownership as a transportation model.

2. For JIT delivery, driverless trucks make huge sense, because it cuts the cost way, way down by eliminating the need for humans constantly at the wheel. This overcomes the problem of (a) paying so much to humans just to be behind the wheel and (b) the wasted time they spend in enforced shut-down mode, sleeping at the truck stop.

The technology is already at a safety level that is superior to human driving, in spite of the news stories that jump on every mistake and bobble that occurs as the tech is rolled out.

This really isn't the tech of the future. It's the present. People are using it right now in test markets world wide. The biggest problem is pushback from existing businesses that will be wiped out by it.

If this BAU world keeps turning for another year, you'll see it begin to have a real impact.

http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/17/14652056/chevrolet-gm-bolt-lyft-autonomous-fleet-plans (http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/17/14652056/chevrolet-gm-bolt-lyft-autonomous-fleet-plans)

I like the idea but remain an agnostic on electric and driver less vehicles.

One thing is for certain. While never seeing one yet the folks that own or have seen a Tesla just absolutely rave about them as the most marvelous technology one could imagine. It's unanimous praise and marvel in my experience.

If consumer sentiment is reliable, these type cars are just getting started and are definitely here to stay.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 18, 2017, 10:19:26 AM
2. For JIT delivery, driverless trucks make huge sense, because it cuts the cost way, way down by eliminating the need for humans constantly at the wheel. This overcomes the problem of (a) paying so much to humans just to be behind the wheel and (b) the wasted time they spend in enforced shut-down mode, sleeping at the truck stop.

As robots and machines eliminate ever more humans from "the workforce," how are people supposed to "make a living"?  Will "unnecessary" people be warehoused in giant human warehouses, dwelling in 6'x6'x6' cubicles and fed "food paste" from tubes protruding from these cubicles? Or will they just be "euthanized"?

There will always be enough work to be done to keep folks busy at something is my view.

Twenty hour work weeks and a huge burgeoning recreation, education, art flourishing economy are more likely options to come about if BAU can continue IMO.         :dontknow:
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 10:35:49 AM
There will always be enough work to be done to keep folks busy at something is my view.

Um.      This isn't happening NOW, and should be expected to get worse as robots and automation systems (and 'outsourcing' - to slave wage locations) continue to eliminate jobs.

Who has a magic wand to wave at it?  What sort of magic are you talking about?


Twenty hour work weeks and a huge burgeoning recreation, education, art flourishing economy are more likely options to come about if BAU can continue IMO.         :dontknow:

Many people cannot afford such luxuries NOW, how will they do so in your utopian world?  Today, a very many millions of people in the USA can afford (barely) rent and food, and not much else.  How will they suddenly have access to luxuries like a "huge burgeoning recreation, education, art flourishing economy"?

Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Eddie on February 18, 2017, 10:51:12 AM
2. For JIT delivery, driverless trucks make huge sense, because it cuts the cost way, way down by eliminating the need for humans constantly at the wheel. This overcomes the problem of (a) paying so much to humans just to be behind the wheel and (b) the wasted time they spend in enforced shut-down mode, sleeping at the truck stop.

As robots and machines eliminate ever more humans from "the workforce," how are people supposed to "make a living"?  Will "unnecessary" people be warehoused in giant human warehouses, dwelling in 6'x6'x6' cubicles and fed "food paste" from tubes protruding from these cubicles? Or will they just be "euthanized"?

Oh, please.

We, as humans, have just witnessed two centuries of existing technologies and patterns of work constantly being EXTREMELY disrupted, with businesses that existed for generations being eliminated and replaced by a faster, cheaper way. Do we have less humans as a result? Did horse wranglers and mule skinners get euthanized? Is the human population shrinking?

People, as individuals, are always challenged to find a way to make a living. Amazingly, some people seem to thrive in just about any scenario you can come up with, and many others couldn't find their own asshole with both hands.

The challenge of living is to find the basics of food and shelter and to make yourself comfortable within your means. Thus it has always been.

Am I concerned that technology is eliminating a lot of jobs? Yes. Do I think the future depends on humans driving trucks over the open road, not so much.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 18, 2017, 10:52:59 AM
There will always be enough work to be done to keep folks busy at something is my view.

Um.      This isn't happening NOW, and should be expected to get worse as robots and automation systems (and 'outsourcing' - to slave wage locations) continue to eliminate jobs.

Who has a magic wand to wave at it?  What sort of magic are you talking about?


Twenty hour work weeks and a huge burgeoning recreation, education, art flourishing economy are more likely options to come about if BAU can continue IMO.         :dontknow:

Many people cannot afford such luxuries NOW, how will they do so in your utopian world?  Today, a very many millions of people in the USA can afford (barely) rent and food, and not much else.  How will they suddenly have access to luxuries like a "huge burgeoning recreation, education, art flourishing economy"?

I wasn't talking about a cure for poverty, just the way the future work place might evolve. Just a guess and casual opinion, not an economics course.

There are many possibilities, it's all guess work. Rapidly advancing technology and robotics likely to solve many problems besides just creating them as well.               :dontknow:
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 11:46:47 AM
2. For JIT delivery, driverless trucks make huge sense, because it cuts the cost way, way down by eliminating the need for humans constantly at the wheel. This overcomes the problem of (a) paying so much to humans just to be behind the wheel and (b) the wasted time they spend in enforced shut-down mode, sleeping at the truck stop.

As robots and machines eliminate ever more humans from "the workforce," how are people supposed to "make a living"?  Will "unnecessary" people be warehoused in giant human warehouses, dwelling in 6'x6'x6' cubicles and fed "food paste" from tubes protruding from these cubicles? Or will they just be "euthanized"?

Oh, please.

We, as humans, have just witnessed two centuries of existing technologies and patterns of work constantly being EXTREMELY disrupted, with businesses that existed for generations being eliminated and replaced by a faster, cheaper way. Do we have less humans as a result? Did horse wranglers and mule skinners get euthanized? Is the human population shrinking?

People, as individuals, are always challenged to find a way to make a living. Amazingly, some people seem to thrive in just about any scenario you can come up with, and many others couldn't find their own asshole with both hands.

The challenge of living is to find the basics of food and shelter and to make yourself comfortable within your means. Thus it has always been.

Am I concerned that technology is eliminating a lot of jobs? Yes. Do I think the future depends on humans driving trucks over the open road, not so much.

The "Oh, please" comment was unnecessary. I'm being real here.  And I'm hardly uninformed about the topic.

The broad topic is called "technological unemployment," -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment -- and those who insist that it's not a worry usually refer to a thing they call The Luddite Fallacy -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment#The_Luddite_fallacy

Problem is, "the luddite fallacy" is a load of horse-pucky.  The idea that it is a fallacy is nothing more than a doctrine of cornucopian faith (with cornucopianism being more than simply the unreasonable faith in natural resource replacements and other assorted make-believe).

Quote
"Do I think the future depends on humans driving trucks over the open road, not so much."

But my point wasn't merely about truck drivers being replaced by technological innovation.  What is happening with automation and advanced technologies is that they are more swiftly eliminating jobs in places like the USA than Any Other Single Factor -- including "outsourcing" to places like China and Mexico. (Ample evidence upon request.)  This hasn't happened to trucking, yet. You're saying that it would, or even should.   I'm saying if it happens with apples it won't be long before it happens to oranges.  There's no point restricting my point to either fruit.  Or to fruit! My issue cannot be treated as so many small potatoes.  The "luddite fallacy" is bullshit. 

Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 11:54:17 AM

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I had thought the Farmer was pointing out it was an absurd falsehood fabricated for the Dim to consume.


This is a violation of the CoC.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Eddie on February 18, 2017, 11:56:05 AM
But my point wasn't merely about truck drivers being replaced by technological innovation.

But it brings up the argument that always get trotted out, which is that if you introduce disruptive technology, it kills jobs.

I did not mean to be insulting, but I view that argument as specious. It overlooks the possibility that disruptive technology can often bring more benefits, cause us to use fewer scarce resources, and pollute less.

My main point WAS just about cars and trucks, however, and not the entire effect of technology on civilization, or whether technology can somehow save the world, which I do NOT believe for a moment. It's just that those saying driverless cars aren't on the horizon...well, they aren't getting around much, out in the real world...cause it's here, already.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 18, 2017, 12:00:10 PM
This is an interesting discussion.  I suppose it's completely within the realm of reality that we could have driverless vehicles on the road simply because the infrastructure already exists.  Unlike with hydrogen cars.  If all you have to do is take the people out of the equation than I see no reason why it couldn't work.  Seems like the wave of the future.  Robots will take on the menial tasks for us so long as we have the energy and resources available to keep making robots.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 12:21:12 PM
2. For JIT delivery, driverless trucks make huge sense, because it cuts the cost way, way down by eliminating the need for humans constantly at the wheel. This overcomes the problem of (a) paying so much to humans just to be behind the wheel and (b) the wasted time they spend in enforced shut-down mode, sleeping at the truck stop.

As robots and machines eliminate ever more humans from "the workforce," how are people supposed to "make a living"?  Will "unnecessary" people be warehoused in giant human warehouses, dwelling in 6'x6'x6' cubicles and fed "food paste" from tubes protruding from these cubicles? Or will they just be "euthanized"?

Oh, please.

We, as humans, have just witnessed two centuries of existing technologies and patterns of work constantly being EXTREMELY disrupted, with businesses that existed for generations being eliminated and replaced by a faster, cheaper way. Do we have less humans as a result? Did horse wranglers and mule skinners get euthanized? Is the human population shrinking?

People, as individuals, are always challenged to find a way to make a living. Amazingly, some people seem to thrive in just about any scenario you can come up with, and many others couldn't find their own asshole with both hands.

The challenge of living is to find the basics of food and shelter and to make yourself comfortable within your means. Thus it has always been.

Am I concerned that technology is eliminating a lot of jobs? Yes. Do I think the future depends on humans driving trucks over the open road, not so much.

The "Oh, please" comment was unnecessary. I'm being real here.  And I'm hardly uninformed about the topic.

The broad topic is called "technological unemployment," -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment) -- and those who insist that it's not a worry usually refer to a thing they call The Luddite Fallacy -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment#The_Luddite_fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment#The_Luddite_fallacy)

Problem is, "the luddite fallacy" is a load of horse-pucky.  The idea that it is a fallacy is nothing more than a doctrine of cornucopian faith (with cornucopianism being more than simply the unreasonable faith in natural resource replacements and other assorted make-believe).

Quote
"Do I think the future depends on humans driving trucks over the open road, not so much."

But my point wasn't merely about truck drivers being replaced by technological innovation.  What is happening with automation and advanced technologies is that they are more swiftly eliminating jobs in places like the USA than Any Other Single Factor -- including "outsourcing" to places like China and Mexico. (Ample evidence upon request.)  This hasn't happened to trucking, yet. You're saying that it would, or even should.   I'm saying if it happens with apples it won't be long before it happens to oranges.  There's no point restricting my point to either fruit.  Or to fruit! My issue cannot be treated as so many small potatoes.  The "luddite fallacy" is bullshit.

EVs are already too expensive for the average J6P.  They're a techno-toy for the Rich.  That's why Tesla has only sold 250,000 carz in 8 years of operation.  This in a market in the FSoA with 250,000,000 passenger carz on the road. Plus Tesla sells globally.  That means it is .1% of the market, and only the .1% can afford them.  Making such a vehicle autonomous and robotic will easily double the cost.  Notice nobody ever mentions a price tag on these vehicles?

Who's buying the ones that already exist?  Debt Bubble companies like Uber and Amazon, who burn through debt like a forest fire on steroids.  Their stupid belief is that someday they'll recoup the investment by eliminating those costly and unreliable drivers.  However, they'll undoubtedly have to replace the techno-marvels before they're ever paid off, and just work up still more debt.

Meanwhile, if you did replace these fleets of taxis and trucks with robots, you're talking industries which employ millions of people.  The total number of people employed in the workforce is already dropping fast.

(http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/559532a3ecad04962459c9a9-1200-900/labor-force-participation-rate-june-2015.png)

So unless you start paying out a Guaranteed National Income, these folks aren't even going to have money for cab fare.

This shit is typical Elon Musk & Ray Kurzweil Snake Oil.  They may put some robotic taxis and trucks on the road, but it will never be profitable.  They'll fund it on more Wall Street debt money.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 18, 2017, 12:26:07 PM


But my point wasn't merely about truck drivers being replaced by technological innovation.  What is happening with automation and advanced technologies is that they are more swiftly eliminating jobs in places like the USA than Any Other Single Factor -- including "outsourcing" to places like China and Mexico. (Ample evidence upon request.)  This hasn't happened to trucking, yet. You're saying that it would, or even should.   I'm saying if it happens with apples it won't be long before it happens to oranges.  There's no point restricting my point to either fruit.  Or to fruit! My issue cannot be treated as so many small potatoes.  The "luddite fallacy" is bullshit.

Just for the sake of argument here, specifically addressing "the luddite fallacy," let's say we could replace resources and energy somehow and continue manufacturing robots that cause the technological unemployment to begin with (I think we all agree that the matrix won't happen due to energy and resources?). 

So all of the truck drivers get replaced by driverless trucks and are out of work.  Well couldn't they do something else?  I mean, as society advances and progresses, aren't there always new jobs being created?  All of the jobs that were lost due to the horse becoming obsolete were replaced, and then some, with all that was required to manufacture and utilize cars. 

How many jobs has the internet gotten rid of?  How many jobs has the internet created?  There's all kinds of jobs that are needed to keep the internet working.  So can robots do all of those jobs?  Can robots manufacture robots all the way from resource extraction, to energy extraction, and all humans have to do is consume?  I can see that future as a possibility (taking natural resource and energy replacement out of the equation) because the economics are already digibits and are not subject to any physical laws (aside from the laws needed to keep the internet afloat).  This future was envisioned in the movie Wall-e, which is another awesome movie. 



http://www.youtube.com/v/h1BQPV-iCkU



Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 12:40:12 PM
How many jobs has the internet gotten rid of?  How many jobs has the internet created? 

If you look at the Labor Participation Rate graph I put up, you can see clearly that more jobs are being destroyed than created.  In addition, the new jobs that have been created are lower in wages and purchasing power for J6P has steadily declined since the 1970s.

So if you followed this to it's logical illogical conclusion the end result is nobody employed with no purchasing power to buy a cab fare!

It's all funded on debt, but unless you get credit to the end consumer, they can't buy the product or service.  That's why you see all the retail stores closing down and why Amazon and Alibaba are money losing operations funded on debt.  Robotic carz are no different.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 12:44:50 PM
But my point wasn't merely about truck drivers being replaced by technological innovation.

But it brings up the argument that always get trotted out, which is that if you introduce disruptive technology, it kills jobs.

I did not mean to be insulting, but I view that argument as specious. It overlooks the possibility that disruptive technology can often bring more benefits, cause us to use fewer scarce resources, and pollute less.

And I was addressing the larger topic -- not just cars and trucks.

I did that because our culture is going ahead with an attempt at BAU, the failure of which is hardly specious. It is already resulting in failure. No need to wait.

That failure can only worsen until something snaps.

It hasn't failed in an sort of snapping way, yet, because the "first world" has had a "middle class" which could afford all sorts of luxury goods and services. That middle class is in collapse already, leaving fewer and fewer people with the income with which to support that luxury based economy.

The fact remains that needs (e.g., food, shelter...) are more important and relevant in an economic system than luxuries are, and both are being attended to with an ever-increasing rate of productivity per unit of labor (meaning numbers of workers per unit of time in production).  If the market for luxury goods and services is shrinking due to a shrinkage in the number of folks who can afford such luxury goods and services (as it is), and the productive capacity of all goods and services is generally increasing due to technological innovation (in the ratio just mentioned), it stands to reason that things are heading toward a breaking point.  Environmental consequences and resource scarcity only compound this tendency toward a breaking point.

All investment of labor, time, resources, research and development, etc., should be directed toward acknowledging and addressing all of the above as a building, integrated crisis.  Instead, far too much of these are being directed at exacerbating the crisis. 

Not all technology-driven disruptions are--or must, necessarily be--contributory to the crisis.  That's why we need to find a way to have choices in adopting innovations, rather than simply adopting those technological "advancements" which are profitable for corporations and their investors.

The 19th century Luddites may have been mistaken, but the 21st century neo-luddites almost certainly are not.

It overlooks the possibility that disruptive technology can often bring more benefits, cause us to use fewer scarce resources, and pollute less.

I'm certain that those benefits--and others as well--can come from disruptive technologies, and those are the ones we should seriously consider adopting!  One major problem, here, is that the R&D resources tend to go to whatever may turn a profit, while we need a great deal more R&D in areas which are less likely to enrich already rich people -- and which smooths a path to sustainable, equitable, even viable future possibilities.

To have R&D which, by design, only serves rich and powerful people's (and corporations') bank accounts can only result in catastrophe. 


Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 18, 2017, 12:51:53 PM
But my point wasn't merely about truck drivers being replaced by technological innovation.

But it brings up the argument that always get trotted out, which is that if you introduce disruptive technology, it kills jobs.

I did not mean to be insulting, but I view that argument as specious. It overlooks the possibility that disruptive technology can often bring more benefits, cause us to use fewer scarce resources, and pollute less.

And I was addressing the larger topic -- not just cars and trucks.

I did that because our culture is going ahead with an attempt at BAU, the failure of which is hardly specious. It is already resulting in failure. No need to wait.

That failure can only worsen until something snaps.

It hasn't failed in an sort of snapping way, yet, because the "first world" has had a "middle class" which could afford all sorts of luxury goods and services. That middle class is in collapse already, leaving fewer and fewer people with the income with which to support that luxury based economy.

The fact remains that needs (e.g., food, shelter...) are more important and relevant in an economic system than luxuries are, and both are being attended to with an ever-increasing rate of productivity per unit of labor (meaning numbers of workers per unit of time in production).  If the market for luxury goods and services is shrinking due to a shrinkage in the number of folks who can afford such luxury goods and services (as it is), and the productive capacity of all goods and services is generally increasing due to technological innovation (in the ratio just mentioned), it stands to reason that things are heading toward a breaking point.  Environmental consequences and resource scarcity only compound this tendency toward a breaking point.

All investment of labor, time, resources, research and development, etc., should be directed toward acknowledging and addressing all of the above as a building, integrated crisis.  Instead, far too much of these are being directed at exacerbating the crisis. 

Not all technology-driven disruptions are--or must, necessarily be--contributory to the crisis.  That's why we need to find a way to have choices in adopting innovations, rather than simply adopting those technological "advancements" which are profitable for corporations and their investors.

The 19th century Luddites may have been mistaken, but the 21st century neo-luddites almost certainly are not.

It overlooks the possibility that disruptive technology can often bring more benefits, cause us to use fewer scarce resources, and pollute less.

I'm certain that those benefits--and others as well--can come from disruptive technologies, and those are the ones we should seriously consider adopting!  One major problem, here, is that the R&D resources tend to go to whatever may turn a profit, while we need a great deal more R&D in areas which are less likely to enrich already rich people -- and which smooths a path to sustainable, equitable, even viable future possibilities.

To have R&D which, by design, only serves rich and powerful people's (and corporations') bank accounts can only result in catastrophe.

In the end it's the lack of energy that makes all of this mute IMO.

We should be focusing on restoration agriculture as a world if we are to seriously address the climate, our numbers, and our lower energy per capita near future. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 12:53:01 PM
2. For JIT delivery, driverless trucks make huge sense, because it cuts the cost way, way down by eliminating the need for humans constantly at the wheel. This overcomes the problem of (a) paying so much to humans just to be behind the wheel and (b) the wasted time they spend in enforced shut-down mode, sleeping at the truck stop.

As robots and machines eliminate ever more humans from "the workforce," how are people supposed to "make a living"?  Will "unnecessary" people be warehoused in giant human warehouses, dwelling in 6'x6'x6' cubicles and fed "food paste" from tubes protruding from these cubicles? Or will they just be "euthanized"?

Oh, please.

We, as humans, have just witnessed two centuries of existing technologies and patterns of work constantly being EXTREMELY disrupted, with businesses that existed for generations being eliminated and replaced by a faster, cheaper way. Do we have less humans as a result? Did horse wranglers and mule skinners get euthanized? Is the human population shrinking?

People, as individuals, are always challenged to find a way to make a living. Amazingly, some people seem to thrive in just about any scenario you can come up with, and many others couldn't find their own asshole with both hands.

The challenge of living is to find the basics of food and shelter and to make yourself comfortable within your means. Thus it has always been.

Am I concerned that technology is eliminating a lot of jobs? Yes. Do I think the future depends on humans driving trucks over the open road, not so much.

The "Oh, please" comment was unnecessary. I'm being real here.  And I'm hardly uninformed about the topic.

The broad topic is called "technological unemployment," -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment) -- and those who insist that it's not a worry usually refer to a thing they call The Luddite Fallacy -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment#The_Luddite_fallacy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_unemployment#The_Luddite_fallacy)

Problem is, "the luddite fallacy" is a load of horse-pucky.  The idea that it is a fallacy is nothing more than a doctrine of cornucopian faith (with cornucopianism being more than simply the unreasonable faith in natural resource replacements and other assorted make-believe).

Quote
"Do I think the future depends on humans driving trucks over the open road, not so much."

But my point wasn't merely about truck drivers being replaced by technological innovation.  What is happening with automation and advanced technologies is that they are more swiftly eliminating jobs in places like the USA than Any Other Single Factor -- including "outsourcing" to places like China and Mexico. (Ample evidence upon request.)  This hasn't happened to trucking, yet. You're saying that it would, or even should.   I'm saying if it happens with apples it won't be long before it happens to oranges.  There's no point restricting my point to either fruit.  Or to fruit! My issue cannot be treated as so many small potatoes.  The "luddite fallacy" is bullshit.

EVs are already too expensive for the average J6P.  They're a techno-toy for the Rich.  That's why Tesla has only sold 250,000 carz in 8 years of operation.  This in a market in the FSoA with 250,000,000 passenger carz on the road. Plus Tesla sells globally.  That means it is .1% of the market, and only the .1% can afford them.  Making such a vehicle autonomous and robotic will easily double the cost.  Notice nobody ever mentions a price tag on these vehicles?

Who's buying the ones that already exist?  Debt Bubble companies like Uber and Amazon, who burn through debt like a forest fire on steroids.  Their stupid belief is that someday they'll recoup the investment by eliminating those costly and unreliable drivers.  However, they'll undoubtedly have to replace the techno-marvels before they're ever paid off, and just work up still more debt.

Meanwhile, if you did replace these fleets of taxis and trucks with robots, you're talking industries which employ millions of people.  The total number of people employed in the workforce is already dropping fast.

(http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/559532a3ecad04962459c9a9-1200-900/labor-force-participation-rate-june-2015.png)

So unless you start paying out a Guaranteed National Income, these folks aren't even going to have money for cab fare.

This shit is typical Elon Musk & Ray Kurzweil Snake Oil.  They may put some robotic taxis and trucks on the road, but it will never be profitable.  They'll fund it on more Wall Street debt money.

RE


Good work, RE!

I'm in fundamental agreement with the salient points in RE's post here. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 12:55:05 PM

In the end it's the lack of energy that makes all of this mute IMO.

SG Alert!: It's moot, not mute

RE
SG Chief of Police
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 01:00:26 PM
I've provided a very rough sketch (and only the beginning of such a sketch) of one sort of R&D project which the world sorely needs today.  Even the title for the project is but a rough sketch suggestion for a "working title".

It is here:

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,9023.msg124331/topicseen.html#msg124331 (http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,9023.msg124331/topicseen.html#msg124331)

What are the odds of this happening in today's America? Not good, right?  Why?  Because it won't make anyone rich in the short run.  It may preserve some real wealth in the long run, however.  That is, if we define wealth as "well-being" in a long term context.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 18, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
Damn!  What a great bunch of responses.  Thanks for the welcome, Eddie.

First:
like that a decade from now we may not need the interstate highway system.

I'd like to see this proposition detailed out a bit.  Why? How?
Good question.  My suggestion (notice I said "may not", not "will not") comes from my less optimistic doomer side.  Considering the not unreal possibility that within a decade this country may see a catastrophic economic contraction forcing the shutdown of large corporate enterprises including government entities like the DOT.  Financial hardship accompanied by high fuel prices could see a significant reduction in miles driven.  The Interstate Highway system requires vigilant maintenance to keep it functional.  That requires capital, which could, and probably will, become scarce.

Now keep in mind that I never said we would not need overland roads of various sizes.  But high-speed controlled access interchanges with entrance and exit ramps, overpasses, flyovers, and all the other accoutrements of modern engine-powered transport systems could become just so much overbuilt liability.  To say within a decade is pessimistic for sure.  To say a hundred years is almost a certainty.

Eddie's points are well taken.  For fleet operations and taxi services driverless cars may well become more common.  But my response was in agreement with the author's statement that
Quote
Our streets and highways are never going to be populated by a significant number of driverless cars. Any more than our lives are going to be enriched by attentive robots exhibiting artificial intelligence.


Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I had thought the Farmer was pointing out it was an absurd falsehood fabricated for the Dim to consume.

Hi Farmer, Welcome aboard the Diner.  :hi:

Thanks to you also for the welcome, Ox.
You pretty much nailed where I was going with that.  But help me out here: is "Dim" the obvious, as in short for "Dimwitted"?
Incidentally, I have a couple of actual Golden Oxen out in my pasture.  They are Jersey steers over 2 years old that are soon to become freezer dwellers.

As for the labor vs. robotics discussion: WAY above my pay grade.  But I definitely concur with this...

In the end it's the lack of energy that makes all of this mute (moot) IMO.
--Greg
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Eddie on February 18, 2017, 01:31:58 PM
We should be focusing on restoration agriculture as a world if we are to seriously address the climate, our numbers, and our lower energy per capita near future.


Uh....we ARE!

Most of the people in this conversation are doing that. (Round of applause for doomer farmers and permies and bamboo-zlers of all persuasions).

It's those other people.....
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: K-Dog on February 18, 2017, 01:46:06 PM
2. For JIT delivery, driverless trucks make huge sense, because it cuts the cost way, way down by eliminating the need for humans constantly at the wheel. This overcomes the problem of (a) paying so much to humans just to be behind the wheel and (b) the wasted time they spend in enforced shut-down mode, sleeping at the truck stop.

As robots and machines eliminate ever more humans from "the workforce," how are people supposed to "make a living"?  Will "unnecessary" people be warehoused in giant human warehouses, dwelling in 6'x6'x6' cubicles and fed "food paste" from tubes protruding from these cubicles? Or will they just be "euthanized"?

http://www.youtube.com/v/yOV8mBjHHYg?ecver=2
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 18, 2017, 02:02:41 PM

In the end it's the lack of energy that makes all of this mute IMO.

SG Alert!: It's moot, not mute

RE
SG Chief of Police

Actually RE, in this case I actually meant to use "mute" and not "moot." 

Am I fuckin' seriously the only Diner that makes spelling and homonym mistakes?  I feel like I'm on the receiving end of a SG witch hunt. 

Welcome to the Diner Farmer...I hope you've got thick internet avatar skin cause if you stick around you're gonna need it. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: K-Dog on February 18, 2017, 02:06:20 PM
Damn!  What a great bunch of responses.  Thanks for the welcome, Eddie.

First:
like that a decade from now we may not need the interstate highway system.

I'd like to see this proposition detailed out a bit.  Why? How?
Good question.  My suggestion (notice I said "may not", not "will not") comes from my less optimistic doomer side.  Considering the not unreal possibility that within a decade this country may see a catastrophic economic contraction forcing the shutdown of large corporate enterprises including government entities like the DOT.  Financial hardship accompanied by high fuel prices could see a significant reduction in miles driven.  The Interstate Highway system requires vigilant maintenance to keep it functional.  That requires capital, which could, and probably will, become scarce.

Now keep in mind that I never said we would not need overland roads of various sizes.  But high-speed controlled access interchanges with entrance and exit ramps, overpasses, flyovers, and all the other accoutrements of modern engine-powered transport systems could become just so much overbuilt liability.  To say within a decade is pessimistic for sure.  To say a hundred years is almost a certainty.

Eddie's points are well taken.  For fleet operations and taxi services driverless cars may well become more common.  But my response was in agreement with the author's statement that
Quote
Our streets and highways are never going to be populated by a significant number of driverless cars. Any more than our lives are going to be enriched by attentive robots exhibiting artificial intelligence.


Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I had thought the Farmer was pointing out it was an absurd falsehood fabricated for the Dim to consume.

Hi Farmer, Welcome aboard the Diner.  :hi:

Thanks to you also for the welcome, Ox.
You pretty much nailed where I was going with that.  But help me out here: is "Dim" the obvious, as in short for "Dimwitted"?
Incidentally, I have a couple of actual Golden Oxen out in my pasture.  They are Jersey steers over 2 years old that are soon to become freezer dwellers.

As for the labor vs. robotics discussion: WAY above my pay grade.  But I definitely concur with this...

In the end it's the lack of energy that makes all of this mute (moot) IMO.
--Greg

(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F24.media.tumblr.com%2Ftumblr_m7dnhmyTIU1qkuho4o1_500.jpg&f=1)

He means DIM as in clockwork orange.  Or the DIM who obsess with flat screens so completely they loose any desire for the 'old in out' and fade away to nothingness consumed by the flickering blue light.  Minds wiped so squeaky clean thought slides right off.  What you called dim-witted.

I don't understand this particular violation of the CCs but R.E. is pretty good at keeping everyone playing nice so perhaps he will explain.


Welcome to the Diner Farmer.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 02:13:30 PM

In the end it's the lack of energy that makes all of this mute IMO.

SG Alert!: It's moot, not mute

RE
SG Chief of Police

Actually RE, in this case I actually meant to use "mute" and not "moot." 

I'm I fuckin' seriously the only Diner that makes spelling and homonym mistakes?  I feel like I'm on the receiving end of a SG witch hunt. 

Welcome to the Diner Farmer...I hope you've got thick internet avatar skin cause if you stick around you're gonna need it.

I just nailed FM for a Criminal Misspelling.  :icon_sunny:

RE
SG Chief of Police
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 02:21:02 PM

He means DIM as in clockwork orange.  Or the DIM who obsess with flat screens so completely they loose any desire for the 'old in out' and fade away to nothingness consumed by the flickering blue light.  Minds wiped so squeaky clean thought slides right off.  What you called dim-witted.

I don't understand this particular violation of the CCs but R.E. is pretty good at keeping everyone playing nice so perhaps he will explain.

I already requested of GO that he keeps his use of the "Dim" terminology to his IRL friends who know his usage of the term.  It's his "polite" way of calling people STUPID.  In this case it was directed at the general population, not Diners and not any particular Blogger, but if you think people are stupid, just call them stupid, not "dim".  Everybody understands what stupid means.  You don't need a background in "A Clockwork Orange" to understand stupid.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 18, 2017, 02:22:07 PM

In the end it's the lack of energy that makes all of this mute IMO.

SG Alert!: It's moot, not mute

RE
SG Chief of Police

Actually RE, in this case I actually meant to use "mute" and not "moot." 

I'm I fuckin' seriously the only Diner that makes spelling and homonym mistakes?  I feel like I'm on the receiving end of a SG witch hunt. 

Welcome to the Diner Farmer...I hope you've got thick internet avatar skin cause if you stick around you're gonna need it.

I just nailed FM for a Criminal Misspelling.  :icon_sunny:

RE
SG Chief of Police

Whatever Chief...I meant to use mute.  It was a calculated wordsmithin' choice and you need to recognize that it worked in the setting I employed it. 

You can't hear shit that's muted. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: K-Dog on February 18, 2017, 02:27:08 PM
About driver-less cars.  I completely agree with Tom Lewis.

It is an expression of techno-narcissism and marketing rolled up together and served to prop up car sales as homo sapiens easymotoringus begins to breath his last.  Nothing more than that.

It is also something that if true would not mean anything except being sort of cool for a short time until the cars were taken for granted by a population which would be even less self-reliant than they already are.  Yet driver-less cars are not only just an evil advertising meme.  They are an insidious waste of our time.  Something we should not be wasting our time on at all.

I can see it now.  Joe 6P driving the misses through Yosemite in a driver-less car.  Both of them on their phones texting away totally oblivious to their surroundings.  In the back seat Jr. Joe and his sister wear Virtual Reality headset lost in worlds of their own.  That some would call this progress shows our species shall soon be extinct.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 02:34:31 PM

Whatever Chief...I meant to use mute.  It was a calculated wordsmithin' choice and you need to recognize that it worked in the setting I employed it. 

You can't hear shit that's muted.

That wasn't clear from the context.  I'm not a mind reader, just a good speller. :P

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 18, 2017, 02:39:22 PM
About driver-less cars.  I completely agree with Tom Lewis.

It is an expression of techno-narcissism and marketing rolled up together and served to prop up car sales as homo sapiens easymotoringus begins to breath his last.  Nothing more than that.

Yeah, I think this notion is correct.



Quote
I can see it now.  Joe 6P driving the misses through Yosemite in a driver-less car.  Both of them on their phones texting away totally oblivious to their surroundings.  In the back seat Jr. Joe and his sister wear Virtual Reality headset lost in worlds of their own.  That some would call this progress show our species shall soon be extinct.

If driver-less cars got to the point where J6P could have one than this scene of yours would no doubt happen the first day in said car. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 18, 2017, 02:43:39 PM
He means DIM as in clockwork orange.  Or the DIM who obsess with flat screens so completely they loose any desire for the 'old in out' and fade away to nothingness consumed by the flickering blue light.  Minds wiped so squeaky clean thought slides right off.  What you called dim-witted.

I don't understand this particular violation of the CCs but R.E. is pretty good at keeping everyone playing nice so perhaps he will explain.
Welcome to the Diner Farmer.

Thanks for the explain'n, Dog.  It's been a long time since I've seen Clockwork Orange.  Gonna hafta netfilx it.
And thanks for the welcome.  I hope I can handle this place.  The brawls get brutal at times.  Don't care much for busted dishes.

Is RE the right guy for CoC enforcement?  Seems he can get pretty testy when he wants to.  Eh, RE?
I just nailed FM for a Criminal Misspelling.  :icon_sunny:

RE
SG Chief of Police

FM?  Did I miss something?
I like deliberate misspellings to mimic conversational speech, or to impart a sense of folksiness or whatever.  Get used to it.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 02:48:51 PM
If driver-less cars got to the point where J6P could have one than this scene of yours would no doubt happen the first day in said car.

Highly doubtful they will ever get to this point, except for the .1% Rich.  Which then will dumb them down even more.

Anyhow, as I said, this technology is mainly for commercial operations like taxis and trucking, but it has enormous cost and enormous downside blowback in terms of employment and debt accumulation.  Obviously, it is highly technology and energy dependent, and ENORMOUSLY complex, requiring satellites, a functioning internet and on board computers and sensing equipment.  If it even gets off the ground for Uber and Amazon funded with debt money, it won't last long.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 02:55:40 PM

Thanks for the explain'n, Dog.  It's been a long time since I've seen Clockwork Orange.  Gonna hafta netfilx it.
And thanks for the welcome.  I hope I can handle this place.  The brawls get brutal at times.  Don't care much for busted dishes.

Is RE the right guy for CoC enforcement?  Seems he can get pretty testy when he wants to.  Eh, RE?

Whether I am the right guy or wrong guy for the job, I'm the guy that does it.  I pay for the place and do most of the writing for it.  So you're stuck with me until I buy my Ticket to the Great Beyond.

As to dealing with deliberate misspellings, you are free to explain them in court after being apprehended by the Spelling Gestapo.

(http://images.gawker.com/1585655609333552527/original.jpg)

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 02:59:49 PM

Anyhow, as I said, this technology is mainly for commercial operations like taxis and trucking....

I find the Big Trucks to be a little scary on the highways even with human drivers.  If I knew or believed these monster trucks were being driven by computers I'd probably choose to stay off those highways altogether.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 03:03:58 PM

Anyhow, as I said, this technology is mainly for commercial operations like taxis and trucking....

I find the Big Trucks to be a little scary on the highways even with human drivers.  If I knew or believed these monster trucks were being driven by computers I'd probably choose to stay off those highways altogether.

I drove one of those Big Rigs for 7 years of accident free miles.  I always found the 4-wheeler drivers to be scarier than the Big Rig Drivers.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Eddie on February 18, 2017, 03:07:28 PM
I think the thing you're all missing here is that millenial generation people don't WANT to own cars and they are actively looking and expecting technology to appear to make it easier for that to be the norm...and Uber and Lyft and a dozen copycats will do that. It's a form of decentralized mass transit. It won't be Joe Sixpack going to Yosemite in a driverless car while watching ESPN.

Shit, Joe Sixpack won't exist. It'll be more and more single people living as cheaply as they can so as to hang on to some quality of life.

Narcissism has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. I'm talking about rides to work, and rides home from the bars, and rides to the grocery store. Cars are expensive to buy ...and not only that, the other stuff: Insurance, fuel, maintenance, tires.....increasingly, it will make more sense to use technology to ride share, and driverless cars will be part of that.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 03:08:41 PM

I drove one of those Big Rigs for 7 years of accident free miles.  I always found the 4-wheeler drivers to be scarier than the Big Rig Drivers.

RE


It's their sheer bulk which makes them scarier to me than the smaller trucks, not driver behavior.  They are much more difficult to avoid for their size.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 03:21:39 PM

I drove one of those Big Rigs for 7 years of accident free miles.  I always found the 4-wheeler drivers to be scarier than the Big Rig Drivers.

RE


It's their sheer bulk which makes them scarier to me than the smaller trucks, not driver behavior.  They are much more difficult to avoid for their size.

Professional Truckers have a much lower accident rate than the typical 4-wheel driver.  Your real threats on the road come from new teenage male drivers, granny  who is losing her marbles and eyesight and of course the drunks coming home from the bar.

Certainly, when a big rig gets in a crash it causes havoc on the road, and trust me I saw the results of plenty of those wrecks.  It's still not the main danger on the road though.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 18, 2017, 03:25:33 PM
Whether I am the right guy or wrong guy for the job, I'm the guy that does it.  I pay for the place and do most of the writing for it.  So you're stuck with me until I buy my Ticket to the Great Beyond.

As to dealing with deliberate misspellings, you are free to explain them in court after being apprehended by the Spelling Gestapo.

RE

I'm good with that.  (Ah be goo wih dat)
Cheers!
Greg
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: K-Dog on February 18, 2017, 05:14:36 PM
If driver-less cars got to the point where J6P could have one than this scene of yours would no doubt happen the first day in said car.

Highly doubtful they will ever get to this point, except for the .1% Rich.  Which then will dumb them down even more.

Anyhow, as I said, this technology is mainly for commercial operations like taxis and trucking, but it has enormous cost and enormous downside blowback in terms of employment and debt accumulation.  Obviously, it is highly technology and energy dependent, and ENORMOUSLY complex, requiring satellites, a functioning internet and on board computers and sensing equipment.  If it even gets off the ground for Uber and Amazon funded with debt money, it won't last long.

RE

The 0.1% already don't drive themselves.  Driver-less cars are a waste for them not because they can't have them but because they essentially already have them.

(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2F94%2Fbf%2F4d%2F94bf4d4e4b03ba015a2d00d60be1077e.jpg&f=1)

And we worry about them drivings themselves why?

Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: K-Dog on February 18, 2017, 05:16:52 PM
Whether I am the right guy or wrong guy for the job, I'm the guy that does it.  I pay for the place and do most of the writing for it.  So you're stuck with me until I buy my Ticket to the Great Beyond.

As to dealing with deliberate misspellings, you are free to explain them in court after being apprehended by the Spelling Gestapo.

RE

I'm good with that.  (Ah be goo wih dat)
Cheers!

(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%2F736x%2Fad%2F04%2F15%2Fad041558dbfb24eaa69ac3d4aa2a07ce.jpg&f=1)
Greg
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 18, 2017, 05:35:56 PM
He means DIM as in clockwork orange.  Or the DIM who obsess with flat screens so completely they loose any desire for the 'old in out' and fade away to nothingness consumed by the flickering blue light.  Minds wiped so squeaky clean thought slides right off.  What you called dim-witted.

I don't understand this particular violation of the CCs but R.E. is pretty good at keeping everyone playing nice so perhaps he will explain.
Welcome to the Diner Farmer.

Thanks for the explain'n, Dog.  It's been a long time since I've seen Clockwork Orange.  Gonna hafta netfilx it.
And thanks for the welcome.  I hope I can handle this place.  The brawls get brutal at times.  Don't care much for busted dishes.

Is RE the right guy for CoC enforcement?  Seems he can get pretty testy when he wants to.  Eh, RE?
I just nailed FM for a Criminal Misspelling.  :icon_sunny:

RE
SG Chief of Police

FM?  Did I miss something?
I like deliberate misspellings to mimic conversational speech, or to impart a sense of folksiness or whatever.  Get used to it.

Thanks K-Dog.   

Yes Farmer, The movie made quite an impression on me and my friends as well. It was rather a cult classic and an important film as well as an impressive work of art in my view. It has all sorts of hidden meaning and questions, and Dim and Alex are representative of more than hoodlums as most believe.     

Mr Kubrick is a true genius, His Space Odyssey is one of the most impressive visual experiences ever witnessed by me in the art world. Unforgettable Masterpiece, as was the Clockwork, Dr Strangelove, Barry Lyndon. There were many others but those were my favorites.

                                                 
Alex


       
                                                   
Dim



                                                             http://www.youtube.com/v/wcW_Ygs6hm0?ecver=2

                                   
                                                 
                                                 (http://derekwinnert.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/655.jpg)
                                                                   
                                                                             Barry Lyndon


                                               
                                                                http://www.youtube.com/v/ypEaGQb6dJk?ecver=2

                                                                          The Dawn of Man
             
                                                           

Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 18, 2017, 06:00:59 PM
Mr Kubrick is a true genius, His Space Odyssey is one of the most impressive visual experiences ever witnessed by me in the art world. Unforgettable Masterpiece...
Couldn't agree more.  First saw 2001 as a kid in the local theatre with BIG screen.  Awesome!
Have yet to see any outer space movie that even comes close to depicting the endless emptiness and distance of space the way Kubrick did.  Instead they bop around between 'star systems' and galaxies like running down to the corner pub.  Not the same at all.  Pathetic, really.

Thanks for the prod to revisit some old classics.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 18, 2017, 06:12:37 PM
Mr Kubrick is a true genius, His Space Odyssey is one of the most impressive visual experiences ever witnessed by me in the art world. Unforgettable Masterpiece...
Couldn't agree more.  First saw 2001 as a kid in the local theatre with BIG screen.  Awesome!
Have yet to see any outer space movie that even comes close to depicting the endless emptiness and distance of space the way Kubrick did.  Instead they bop around between 'star systems' and galaxies like running down to the corner pub.  Not the same at all.  Pathetic, really.

Thanks for the prod to revisit some old classics.

Yes Farmer, get your drift exactly. Half a century later and they haven't come close to what Mr Kubrick presented to us.

Glad you enjoyed the brief visit back in time. I'm one of the old timers, geezers :laugh: here and am fond of  reflecting on the past.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 18, 2017, 07:02:56 PM

Yes Farmer, get your drift exactly. Half a century later and they haven't come close to what Mr Kubrick presented to us.

Glad you enjoyed the brief visit back in time. I'm one of the old timers, geezers :laugh: here and am fond of  reflecting on the past.

Makes you wonder what Kubrick could have done with the high-tech cinematic toys Hollywood plays with nowadays.
Things haven't necessarily gotten 'better' in spite of all the 'progress' we've made.  Brings to mind JMG's Retrotopia and related discussions (I assume you're up on that?).

Your profile fails to reveal your age.  So just how geezery (OMG watch out for the SG!) are you?  I'm not exactly young if I watched 2001 at first run in the theatre as a teenager, though I still have a fairly low coefficient of geezerness.  I, too, enjoy reflecting on the past.  Maybe it's rose colored glasses, but it seems like much of it was a better time...
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 18, 2017, 07:57:43 PM
Yes Farmer, get your drift exactly. Half a century later and they haven't come close to what Mr Kubrick presented to us.

Fixed that for you.

WTF calls him "Mr Kubrick"?  He's either called "Stanley Kubrick", or just "Kubrick".

Here's a movie review of 2001 from Roger Ebert (RE  :icon_sunny: )

Quote from: Roger Ebert
|  Roger Ebert
March 27, 1997   | 

The genius is not in how much Stanley Kubrick does in "2001: A Space Odyssey," but in how little. This is the work of an artist so sublimely confident that he doesn't include a single shot simply to keep our attention. He reduces each scene to its essence, and leaves it on screen long enough for us to contemplate it, to inhabit it in our imaginations. Alone among science-fiction movies, “2001" is not concerned with thrilling us, but with inspiring our awe.

No little part of his effect comes from the music. Although Kubrick originally commissioned an original score from Alex North, he used classical recordings as a temporary track while editing the film, and they worked so well that he kept them. This was a crucial decision. North's score, which is available on a recording, is a good job of film composition, but would have been wrong for “2001" because, like all scores, it attempts to underline the action -- to give us emotional cues. The classical music chosen by Kubrick exists outside the action. It uplifts. It wants to be sublime; it brings a seriousness and transcendence to the visuals.

Consider two examples. The Johann Strauss waltz “Blue Danube,'' which accompanies the docking of the space shuttle and the space station, is deliberately slow, and so is the action. Obviously such a docking process would have to take place with extreme caution (as we now know from experience), but other directors might have found the space ballet too slow, and punched it up with thrilling music, which would have been wrong.

We are asked in the scene to contemplate the process, to stand in space and watch. We know the music. It proceeds as it must. And so, through a peculiar logic, the space hardware moves slowly because it's keeping the tempo of the waltz. At the same time, there is an exaltation in the music that helps us feel the majesty of the process. :

Do you see "Mr Kubrick" in there anywhere?  I don't.  I have been reading movie reviews for YEARS, and I never heard him called Mr Kubrick before.  I wasn't even sure who GO was talking about until he listed all the movies.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 18, 2017, 08:16:44 PM
Oprah
Prince
Sher
Enya
Drake
Moby
Kubrick
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 19, 2017, 04:13:37 AM
Yes Farmer, get your drift exactly. Half a century later and they haven't come close to what Mr Kubrick presented to us.

Fixed that for you.

WTF calls him "Mr Kubrick"?  He's either called "Stanley Kubrick", or just "Kubrick".

Here's a movie review of 2001 from Roger Ebert (RE  :icon_sunny: )

Quote from: Roger Ebert
|  Roger Ebert
March 27, 1997   | 

The genius is not in how much Stanley Kubrick does in "2001: A Space Odyssey," but in how little. This is the work of an artist so sublimely confident that he doesn't include a single shot simply to keep our attention. He reduces each scene to its essence, and leaves it on screen long enough for us to contemplate it, to inhabit it in our imaginations. Alone among science-fiction movies, “2001" is not concerned with thrilling us, but with inspiring our awe.

No little part of his effect comes from the music. Although Kubrick originally commissioned an original score from Alex North, he used classical recordings as a temporary track while editing the film, and they worked so well that he kept them. This was a crucial decision. North's score, which is available on a recording, is a good job of film composition, but would have been wrong for “2001" because, like all scores, it attempts to underline the action -- to give us emotional cues. The classical music chosen by Kubrick exists outside the action. It uplifts. It wants to be sublime; it brings a seriousness and transcendence to the visuals.

Consider two examples. The Johann Strauss waltz “Blue Danube,'' which accompanies the docking of the space shuttle and the space station, is deliberately slow, and so is the action. Obviously such a docking process would have to take place with extreme caution (as we now know from experience), but other directors might have found the space ballet too slow, and punched it up with thrilling music, which would have been wrong.

We are asked in the scene to contemplate the process, to stand in space and watch. We know the music. It proceeds as it must. And so, through a peculiar logic, the space hardware moves slowly because it's keeping the tempo of the waltz. At the same time, there is an exaltation in the music that helps us feel the majesty of the process. :

Do you see "Mr Kubrick" in there anywhere?  I don't.  I have been reading movie reviews for YEARS, and I never heard him called Mr Kubrick before.  I wasn't even sure who GO was talking about until he listed all the movies.

RE

How sad, the jealousy and hatred of someone who is different.

No wonder the world is in the sorry state it is. Just look at what a pleasant conversation with a new member was turned into by the Communist.

That urge to control, to standardize, to lord over, to ridicule and marginalize, it's in their nature. Too say nothing of the disrespect and the fucking nerve to accuse me of having bad manners and name his gophers as having the same distaste for me. The Bullies always have the gang to point at and summon when their name calling.

How well I remember them in school.  The thugs that thought up abusive names about the other kids who were minding their business and trying to get along. Always taunts and exclamations deriding them for their looks, height, weight, manner of speaking etc.

My newest crimes are the use of the words Dim and Mister.  :icon_scratch: :-\ ::)
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 19, 2017, 04:38:37 AM
My newest crimes are the use of the words Dim and Mister.

Your crime is affectation and masking disrespect.

It reminds me of my first meetings with my lawyer, who when we conversed  would always call me "Mr. Engineer".  In return, in the first meeting, I called him "Mr. Cheatham", but his name was Irving and on his Biz Card it said  "I. Chetham" with the Coat of Arms of his Law Firm Dewey, Chetham and Howe.  So in meeting 2, I started calling him Irving instead of Mr. Cheatham.  I also told him to stop calling ME "Mr. Engineer" and please just call me Reverse instead?  Which being a fairly reasonable fellow for a shyster lawyer he did, and we got along OK after that.

This nonsense of pretending to be respectful by dropping on formal honorifics is ridiculous.  I think Stanley Kubrick (SK) was one of the finest directors ever to hit the cinema world.  But NOBODY calls him "Mr. Kubrick".  It's ridiculous.  It makes your prose stilted and anachronistic and just annoying to read.

Get over yourself and your bullshit.  It doesn't fool anyone here.  You're a disrespectful and insulting person.  Own up to it and stop trying to paper it over with honorifics.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 19, 2017, 06:26:28 AM


How sad, the jealousy and hatred of someone who is different.

No wonder the world is in the sorry state it is. Just look at what a pleasant conversation with a new member was turned into by the Communist.

That urge to control, to standardize, to lord over, to ridicule and marginalize, it's in their nature. Too say nothing of the disrespect and the fucking nerve to accuse me of having bad manners and name his gophers as having the same distaste for me. The Bullies always have the gang to point at and summon when their name calling.

How well I remember them in school.  The thugs that thought up abusive names about the other kids who were minding their business and trying to get along. Always taunts and exclamations deriding them for their looks, height, weight, manner of speaking etc.

My newest crimes are the use of the words Dim and Mister.  :icon_scratch: :-\ ::)

So a few things here Ox:

First, the other day you referred to RE's "sycophants" and seeing as how I was sided with him on that thread, I assumed you were referring to me as a sycophant of RE's.  Well, I asked you if that was the case.  You never responded.

Secondly, I am actually friends with RE in real life (as well as Eddie, Surly, Monsta, JD, Roamer, and WHD).  IRL I have spent the most time with RE, several weeks at this point, as well as conversing with him via the internet for the past five years (pretty much on a daily basis with some walkabouts here and there).  I've spent countless hours with him on the phone and on skype and for podcasts.  He is not some anonymous internet forum owner to me.  He is my friend.

Usually friends have shit in common.  I became friends with RE because I saw that he saw things pretty much the same as I, and it's the same with the rest of the Diners.  For the most part we share a world view where the future is one of energy/natural resource scarcity within the context of a collapsing global civilization (or at least empire) and a changing climate.  I would say that for the most part all of the Diners would agree on this account, including you Ox. 

Now, occasionally I do disagree with RE.  It's not often because I tend to agree with him on most accounts.  But occasionally I do disagree, and I call him out when I do, and I also call him an asshole.  Now, you still have not answered that you think I'm a sycophant of RE's, but I have to wonder why you have not answered?  We both know that you think I'm his sycophant.  I am no ones sycophant, not even JMG's (and we all know how much I look up to him), nor any of the other collapse authors such as Orlov or JHK.  I happen to agree with all three of them as well.  In fact it's rare that I ever disagree with any of those authors just listed.  That does not make for group think or sycophants. 

Also, it should be noted, that I keep an open mind on all topics we discuss.  I have my opinions on most of them, and some I am much more informed on than others.  No matter how informed I am on a topic, however, there are always those who are more informed.  Also, due to the fact that I'm one of the youngest regular Diners, and certainly no elder here, I always respect y'alls age and wisdom, and I will consider your views when different from mine.  I will consider them because I understand that some things you can only know with age.  No idiot is going to spend time conversing on this forum (unless as a troll).  We are all very intelligent individuals, and we all have our disagreements, but more so we have our agreements. 

So please drop this RE sycophant bullshit Ox!  I'm not a sycophant.  I pride myself in being an autonomous and self realized (well realizing at least) individual.  To call me a sycophant is probably the worst insult you could fling my way, and that is not bullshit.  I hate being called a sycophant more than I hate speaking and not being listened to (which I vehemently hate, next to sitting in stopped traffic or waiting in line for government bureaucracy). 

Now, having said all of that, I will say that I think RE spends a lot of time fucking with you as pertains to the Diner CoC.  I think he busts your balls a bit much on that account, but it's his forum, so what are you gonna do? 

Anyways, please stop calling me a sycophant.  RE does not have a groupie.  We just all like his club here on the Diner, and so we spend our time here, and yes...some of us agree with him on most accounts.  And?  What is the crime in agreeing with somebody when you hold the same world view? 

And just as a preemptive measure, for whatever grammar/syntax/spelling/rules of Her Queen's English or whatever the fuck, that I abused in this post...you can go on and fuck yourself SG Chief  ;D

and Farmer McGregor, we are a 21st century internet family here and we fight a lot...just a heads up...also you'll probably be referred to as FM.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 19, 2017, 06:53:25 AM
My newest crimes are the use of the words Dim and Mister.

Your crime is affectation and masking disrespect.

It reminds me of my first meetings with my lawyer, who when we conversed  would always call me "Mr. Engineer".  In return, in the first meeting, I called him "Mr. Cheatham", but his name was Irving and on his Biz Card it said  "I. Chetham" with the Coat of Arms of his Law Firm Dewey, Chetham and Howe.  So in meeting 2, I started calling him Irving instead of Mr. Cheatham.  I also told him to stop calling ME "Mr. Engineer" and please just call me Reverse instead?  Which being a fairly reasonable fellow for a shyster lawyer he did, and we got along OK after that.

This nonsense of pretending to be respectful by dropping on formal honorifics is ridiculous.  I think Stanley Kubrick (SK) was one of the finest directors ever to hit the cinema world.  But NOBODY calls him "Mr. Kubrick".  It's ridiculous.  It makes your prose stilted and anachronistic and just annoying to read.

Get over yourself and your bullshit.  It doesn't fool anyone here.  You're a disrespectful and insulting person.  Own up to it and stop trying to paper it over with honorifics.

RE

Thank you for more of your hatred and jealousy. Get it off your chest. It won't make you a better person, but may make you feel better.

My original comment to your outlandish attack on me while having a pleasant conversation with a member stands as is, unaltered in the least.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 19, 2017, 07:15:18 AM

That urge to control, to standardize, to lord over, to ridicule and marginalize, it's in their nature. Too say nothing of the disrespect and the fucking nerve to accuse me of having bad manners and name his gophers as having the same distaste for me. The Bullies always have the gang to point at and summon when their name calling.


Just to be clear, my list of famous people who are known by one name was simply a playful little romp, riffing on what RE said about Kubrick simply being called Kubrick.  It made me think of Oprah and Sting and Prince, etc. I was just having fun making a little list, and wasn't joining in on a bashing of you, G.O.  In fact, I found RE's statement about your use of "Mr" rather pointless.  Maybe THAT's why I made a silly, pointless little list.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 19, 2017, 07:23:59 AM
Quote
So a few things here Ox:

First, the other day you referred to RE's "sycophants" and seeing as how I was sided with him on that thread, I assumed you were referring to me as a sycophant of RE's.  Well, I asked you if that was the case.  You never responded.

You assumed wrongly Lucid. Always remember that famous military saying that we all were taught. "ASSUMPTION IS THE MOTHER OF ALL FUCK UPS". It's a saying with much truth in it, but of course there are always exceptions to the rule.

I did not answer you because for the first time since knowing you composed a nasty demeaning posting to me. You know the one I am referring too. Forgot about it by this morning and even sent a friendly posting your way this morning you may have missed.

For further reference a sycophant, when used by me, is the name given to someone who admires someone. It encompasses,  in this case, more folks than one of RE's  admins, such as yourself. However, feel free to wear the shoe if it fits.

I think it's great you guys all get along and play with one another in the real world. Perhaps you might consider forming a softball team, or basketball team and roam the country spreading good will and our name. "The Diners"

The Harlem Globe Trotters of Doom!   :icon_mrgreen: :laugh: :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny: :emthup:

Nice talking to you Lucid, and don't forget that old saying about assumption.  :laugh: ;D


                                                 (https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder706/500x/45391706.jpg)
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 19, 2017, 07:25:01 AM
and Farmer McGregor, we are a 21st century internet family here and we fight a lot...just a heads up...also you'll probably be referred to as FM.

Or AM-FM. 

Or Radio.

Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 19, 2017, 07:31:39 AM

That urge to control, to standardize, to lord over, to ridicule and marginalize, it's in their nature. Too say nothing of the disrespect and the fucking nerve to accuse me of having bad manners and name his gophers as having the same distaste for me. The Bullies always have the gang to point at and summon when their name calling.


Just to be clear, my list of famous people who are known by one name was simply a playful little romp, riffing on what RE said about Kubrick simply being called Kubrick.  It made me think of Oprah and Sting and Prince, etc. I was just having fun making a little list, and wasn't joining in on a bashing of you, G.O.  In fact, I found RE's statement about your use of "Mr" rather pointless.  Maybe THAT's why I made a silly, pointless little list.

Your posting never entered my mind at the time JRM. I glanced at it quickly skimming it, and in all honesty, in my ignorance of what you were getting at thought it was a list of people that owned Tesla's. Sorry, and while we are markedly different people politically, have always viewed you in a friendly peaceful light.  Peace JRM Peace and Understanding my friend.  :emthup: :icon_sunny:
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 19, 2017, 10:17:31 AM
and Farmer McGregor, we are a 21st century internet family here and we fight a lot...just a heads up...also you'll probably be referred to as FM.

Or AM-FM. 

Or Radio.
Funny!  'Radio' reminds me that I used to hold a ham license -- still have all the equipment, now ancient vacuum tube behemoths.

As to the "21st century internet family here and we fight a lot" my initial response is to be a little disturbed by it.  Being a little thick-headed, I'm not sure where the friendly horseplay leaves off and vicious personal assaults begin.  One of the things I really hate about the internet is the opportunity to say (write) things that one would never (hopefully ever) say to someone's face.  I keep an eye on a number of blogs since I'm interested in the topics of peak oil and collapse -- realities that I'm convinced we must respond to -- but the only ones I regularly read the comments to are Club Orlov and JMG's ADR precisely because they are moderated and kept refreshingly civil.  Disagreement is to be expected, but I have a thin skin for incivility.  Flame-baiting trolls are in the category of brute beasts fit only to be caught and killed.

Being new to the forum side of this site, I'm only recently digging in to read old threads to get a feel for the various members, so I don't know the histories or relationships between them.  Again, I'm not good at discerning where teasing becomes meanness.  If I find myself being harassed in an unfriendly, uncivilized manner I will take my grub in a to-go box and go find some nice park to dine.  Frankly, GO, I'm wondering a little bit why you are still sitting at the counter; the accusation that "You're a disrespectful and insulting person" has not (yet?) been my observation.  Perhaps if I hang around long enough I will learn otherwise.  I hope not.

Not that I have no sense of humor or can't take friendly and ornery banter.  But life has been pretty effing hard on me with the result that I tend to be serious-minded.  My lifestyle choice to struggle to relearn the lost arts of self-sufficiency through sustainable small-scale regenerative agriculture and animal husbandry keeps me dangerously close to destitution -- I easily qualify for welfare but choose not to avail myself of it.  I have no disposable income and have not had even a short vacation in decades.  But compared to 80 or 90 percent of the globe's population -- especially from a long-term historical perspective -- I'm a rich man who lives in opulent luxury (a hundred year old farmhouse that should be bulldozed by modern American standards).  I'm drawn to The Diner by the topics that are regularly discussed here.  As a result of my circumstances, not being a bored retiree, I have little time for pointless nonsense even though it can be fun, though I will indulge in some occasionally.  Mostly I will just lurk.
Note to Mr. Chief Spelling Gestapo:  I love a good literacy challenge. :partytime2:
I was totally puzzled when I saw this in the comments on this forum topic (Driverless Cars etc.):
I just nailed FM for a Criminal Misspelling.  :icon_sunny:

RE
SG Chief of Police

Later I discovered
Fifty States Research Project etc...
Man-oh-man, I'd ask where to sign up, but some of these...
...involve collaboration between the appropriate department/s of state colleges or universities...
give me the whillies.

SG Alert!:  It's willies, not whillies.

RE
SG Chief of Police
on a completely different forum topic.  Clearly you are not above cross-forum intimidation!
The fact that you were totally correct just sucks!  :oops:
Fair enough.  You may be the boss here, but two can play at that game.  I'm a-gonna fetch out my fine-tooth dictionary comb and go a-huntin'. :whip:

I hope all involved here can keep The Diner a pleasant place to hang around.  Certainly this would make it more hospitable to other potential diners.
Cheers,
Farmer Greg
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 19, 2017, 11:42:52 AM
No worries FM.  We currently have no trolls on the Diner to worry about. 

Ox, not sure I know what comment you are talking about where I was cruel to you?   :icon_scratch:

Anyways, whatever, I have no beef with you  :) Or any other current Diner for that matter. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: K-Dog on February 19, 2017, 12:01:10 PM
Welcome again Farmer.  I do remember you from Club Orlov when I used to drop in there.  I recall I pretty much liked most of what you wrote there and I also know you from the Archdruid report.  There are a few of us here who don't really care for Dimitry O. having had extremely unsavory and rude communications with his narcissisim in the past.  Personally hell will freeze over before I ever go to Club Orlov again; but that is a personal problem which has nothing to do with you.

A difference between this place and the 'Club' is that Dimitry picks and chooses what he decides to post based on his liking or agreement with a post's intellectual content or not, or if it supports his various financial endeavors.  Dissent is not allowed at Club Orlov and Orlov's moderation is actually more censorship than making sure a comment meets minimum standards of a code of conduct. 

Here things are different.  We screen for intellectual content based on a post having any or not and not if we agree or disagree with particular points of view.  We welcome dissent as long as it is honestly based and reasonably factually sound.  Dissent that is the result of pure trollery is discouraged as it should be, and if it a member has a chronic dishonest agenda they may be banned but the bar on getting banned has been pretty high in the past.  We don't allow diners to be rude to each other so few commenters from Kunstler's blog would make it here for instance.  I'm an exception who does fit in here, perhaps because I am a real person.  Most of us here know that many avatars at Kunstler's blog are actually government employees fishing for terrorists and not real people.

I wanted to welcome you again because I recall you were one of the best brains at Club Orlov and I liked reading you.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 19, 2017, 12:15:17 PM
Most of us here know that many avatars at Kunstler's blog are actually government employees fishing for terrorists and not real people.


No shit!  You know this to be factually true?  I never post on Kunstler's blog.  I was a member for several years at the kunstlercast forum though.  I think I got banned when I mentioned the Diner, but I was a regular there for several years. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 19, 2017, 12:17:14 PM
Being new to the forum side of this site, I'm only recently digging in to read old threads to get a feel for the various members, so I don't know the histories or relationships between them.  Again, I'm not good at discerning where teasing becomes meanness.  If I find myself being harassed in an unfriendly, uncivilized manner I will take my grub in a to-go box and go find some nice park to dine.  Frankly, GO, I'm wondering a little bit why you are still sitting at the counter; the accusation that "You're a disrespectful and insulting person" has not (yet?) been my observation.  Perhaps if I hang around long enough I will learn otherwise.  I hope not.

Basically, the only person currently contributing to the Diner Forum who doesn't get along is GO.  The issue is he hates my guts because I am politically left, I am not a Gold Bug and will periodically dissect why it will not function as money in a post-collapse world and because I make the rules on the Diner. He has insulted me over and over again for years, but I let him stay anyhow.  I periodically will put him on moderation, but then when I take it off all he does is complain about the "censorship" on the Diner, which is one of the least censored forums in the collapse blogosphere.  Both JMG and Kunstler are far more heavy handed with moderation than I am, K-Dog gets his posts regularly deleted by Kunstler and mine were regularly deleted by JMG until I quit posting there because of that.

Beyond that, GO calls anyone who agrees with me a syncophant, he's the only right wing Trump supporter on the Forum, and since we bash Trump all the time this bugs him.  So then he'll get general and call all "lefties" as being "dim", which applies to just about every other Diner to some degree, although none are as far left as I am.

Anyhow, hopefully you can tolerate the periodic vitriole that comes off his keyboard.  Otherwise these days, things are fairly calm around here.  :icon_sunny:

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: monsta666 on February 19, 2017, 12:19:56 PM
Welcome to the forums Greg. I hope you do stay longer and enjoy what this forum has to offer. I do understand there can be arguments that take place periodically but the general style of the diner as K-Dog already highlighted is to allow all points of view to be expressed. Unfortunately a conflict of opinion can lead to some arguments some of which can get a little heated. The main basic requirement when making a point - for the most part anyway - is that people maintain a civil dialogue when criticising others ideas. Above all criticise the argument and not the person. At least that is the theory, in practice a degree of leeway is tolerated. It can sometimes be a fine line between balancing free speech with civility and I do honestly feel this is one of the few places in the collapse community where people can actively challenge the prevailing spin on the board without being censored.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 19, 2017, 12:51:07 PM
Monsta, Lucid, RE & K-Dog,
Thanks for your encouraging words.

Regarding those other sites; like K-Dog, I have also lapsed on even checking in on Club Orlov due to the limited scope of discussion along with a particular slant that is not to my taste.  JHK's blog is a good short read because he is such a wordsmith.  The commenters are mostly jerks.  K-Dog, I gotta tell ya that when I have time to scan the comments there I scroll quickly looking for two things: the big green line that indicates that Kunstler himself has posted a reply, usually cuz' somebody pissed him off, and for your avatar because I like to see what you have to say.  And I know that Greer's blog is heavily moderated for sometimes trivial reasons, but it does result in a lot of intelligent commentary.

RE, I hope that my concerns for GO have not impugned you in any way.  Obviously, I don't have enough history here to appreciate how your relationship has developed.  I'll catch on if I stick around long enough, though my presence will be spotty at times since I have a small business to operate here on my mini-farm which provides my meager cash income so that I can also pursue my prepsteading (time-out, SG, it's a made-up word!) endeavors.  Winter affords me some free time to sit at this keyboard; growing season not so much.

Again, thanks to all, and keep up the good fight!
--Radio?
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 19, 2017, 01:17:25 PM
I have a small business to operate here on my mini-farm which provides my meager cash income so that I can also pursue my prepsteading (time-out, SG, it's a made-up word!) endeavors.  Winter affords me some free time to sit at this keyboard; growing season not so much.

Made up words don't get a ticket from the Spelling Gestapo.  :icon_mrgreen:  "Doomstead" is a made up word of course.

What kind of small biz do you run off the farm?

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: K-Dog on February 19, 2017, 01:25:34 PM
Most of us here know that many avatars at Kunstler's blog are actually government employees fishing for terrorists and not real people.


No shit!  You know this to be factually true?  I never post on Kunstler's blog.  I was a member for several years at the kunstlercast forum though.  I think I got banned when I mentioned the Diner, but I was a regular there for several years.

I was hoping you would let me pass.  We both know each other from there but we have never mentioned it.  Going back a long way I saw you there many times.  As to it being factually true the answer is yes.  I know it like a squirrel being snatched off the ground by a bald eagle knows he is going to be lunch.  You have also posted good stuff over the years lucid but when I posted last I had to get back to my weekend stuff.  I knew I should have mentioned you.  My bad.

There was a woman or at least the avatar of a real person who went by Wage Laborer.  She used to comment daily for years.  Suddenly she stopped.  She made a last post that she had been approached by a man in a black suit at a shopping mall.  It totally freaked her out.  When I had my first encounter with the jet black suit I learned the shirts were always bright white.  Even the homeland security operatives follow the F.B.I. dress code but with a little less attention to detail.

I suspect collapse aficionados and Diners are listed in dissent watch training manuals next to members of P.E.T.A. as a subgroup of Eco-Terrorists.  Some reasons we are there:


But whatever, as much as Trump claims he wants to cut government fat the surveillance and we will fuck with you if we feel like it paychecks I'm sure are quite secure.

Perhaps should we ever have driverless cars we could find ourselves suddenly rerouted on a morning commute and driven through the gate of a razor wire fenced lot.  Once inside the cars shuts down opens the doors and the handcuffs come out.  Driverless cars may be a great advancement to some after all.  Some would call this progress.  Driverless cars can eliminate the court system and leave tire ruts on the back of due process.  Perfect draconian efficiency.  Do not pass go and go directly to jail.  Progress.

(https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-_GPFALPKM1I%2FUhp2o_HtpmI%2FAAAAAAAAAFA%2FzfX6ycydWiI%2Fs1600%2F08.22_Monopoly%2Bgo%2Bto%2Bjail.jpg&f=1)
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 19, 2017, 02:58:10 PM
I have a small business to operate here on my mini-farm which provides my meager cash income so that I can also pursue my prepsteading (time-out, SG, it's a made-up word!) endeavors.  Winter affords me some free time to sit at this keyboard; growing season not so much.

What kind of small biz do you run off the farm?

RE
Actually on the farm.
We are on what remains of one of the oldest homesteads in northern Colorado.  In the late forties the farming family figured out that they could put a gas pump in front of their vegetable stand and sell gas to the passing traffic -- the road used to be a combination of two state highways which were re-routed onto a bypass in the eighties -- so they bought a Standard Service franchise.  Shortly thereafter they replaced the vegy stand with a bona-fide gas station building, quit farming, and sold off most of the land.  After the bypass was built, reduced traffic flow killed the gas station, so the building was re-purposed as a feed store serving the local ruralites. (Oh shit, here comes the SG...)  The big shed that previously served farm purposes became the feed warehouse.

We came here over a decade ago and inherited the feed store business since 1) It is the only reasonable use for the buildings that the community will support -- not much demand for any other retail business around here; for that matter, not all that much demand for THIS retail business.  But more importantly 2) If we undertake a 'Change Of Occupancy' to a commercial structure we become subject to The Forces Of Building & Zoning Department of the County Government.  A change of occupancy is their opportunity to make you bend over and pay their salaries through permit fees to bring everything up to modern code.  You know, important stuff like handicap access and restrooms for employees (even if you don't have any) and traffic access/egress parking landscaping bullshit.  In effect, they hold us hostage to a 'grandfathered' occupancy.  Unless we want to spend megabucks to do anything different, our only other choice is to shut it down.  So a feed store it is.

The upside is that we have developed a tremendous relationship with a lot of the local community.  They like us here.  And it is a ready market for our excess agri-products, some of which the Official Food Police would have a cow (yes, some of it is home-processed beef and chicken) if they knew about it.  We also do a lot of teaching on numerous topics all germane to the collapse narrative, homesteading, food & health, etc.  So it's not all bad.

Yesterday I was snooping what, IIRC you called the Diner Convocation, which you boys held some time back, and was thinking how if you ever want to do something like that again -- or anyone is in the area for any reason -- I would enjoy hosting a get-together.
Cheers,
Greg aka FM aka Radio, unofficial self-appointed junior SG
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: RE on February 19, 2017, 03:21:55 PM
Yesterday I was snooping what, IIRC you called the Diner Convocation, which you boys held some time back, and was thinking how if you ever want to do something like that again -- or anyone is in the area for any reason -- I would enjoy hosting a get-together.
Cheers,
Greg aka FM aka Radio, unofficial self-appointed junior SG

Thanks!  That's a great offer FM!  We may take you up on it!  How many acres do you have?  Can you put up some pics of the farm?

What do you have besides Chickens?  Pigs?  Goats? Cows?  Eddie is raising Mangalitsa pigs, a Hungarian breed.

RE
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 19, 2017, 03:34:59 PM
Hi Radio -

This place is basically safe.  G.O. isn't really a bad guy, he's just in need of some political education is all.  'Course, he likely thinks the same of me.

I hope Radio sticks as your nickname.  It's better than Nick, and has a fun relationship to the initials, FM.

I'm intrigued by your rural way of life.  I used be a country boy for reals (uh-oh, spelling police alert!). Somehow the small city life grabbed me, but I miss having wild animals as my nearest neighbors.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Farmer McGregor on February 19, 2017, 05:54:42 PM
I hope Radio sticks as your nickname.  It's better than Nick, and has a fun relationship to the initials, FM.
I agree about Radio -- it's fun.  And as I mentioned elsewhere, it harks back to my days as a ham radio operator, something I never lost my love for.

But 'Nick'???

I'm intrigued by your rural way of life.  I used be a country boy for reals (uh-oh, spelling police alert!). Somehow the small city life grabbed me, but I miss having wild animals as my nearest neighbors.
The rural/farm life has its pros and cons.  Hard work, no escape from chores that have to be done even in blizzards or when you're sick or your back is killing you (one of my occasional problems).  And of course, it's nearly impossible to support yourself off the land unless you scale up and become industrial; right now, the cost of food in this country doesn't even come close to the true cost of production, so we compete against an unfair government subsidized slave labored behemoth.  I'm focusing on learning how to do it well in the expectation that as collapse progresses that behemoth is going to go down.  And maybe go down hard and fast.

On the other hand, I just came back in from evening chores where I was marveling at the smell in the wind, the little storm that is moving past, the view of the mountains from out in the back pasture...  marvelous stuff.
I give thanks for it.

...if you ever want to do something like that again -- or anyone is in the area for any reason -- I would enjoy hosting a get-together.

Thanks!  That's a great offer FM!  We may take you up on it!  How many acres do you have?  Can you put up some pics of the farm?

What do you have besides Chickens?  Pigs?  Goats? Cows?  Eddie is raising Mangalitsa pigs, a Hungarian breed.

RE
We have 7 acres in the "urban/rural interface" area outside the largest northern Colorado city.  It is the farmstead from what was a large farm originally owned as the first land claim in the area by a French settler.  Someday I can do a picture essay, just not now.

We have way too many chickens (I've been butchering batches of them when weather permits, we're down to about fifty) and way too many Jerseys: Our original momma cow that we've retired and I will be cramming her into the freezers as hamburger just as soon as I can get some preparations done for that (we do this ourselves, so we have to get a lot of ducks in a row); her two older sons which are also destined for freezers, but we have made arrangements with licensed processors so that we can sell the beef (thankfully! I really don't want to do them at home) -- incidentally, Jerseys are fawn brown colored so these boys are my Golden Oxen!; a daughter that is our only milkable (no, SG, no) cow but is dried up since she's in her third trimester; and three youngsters that will grow up to be milkers or beef.

Learned that waterfowl can be really foul; pigs and goats don't work here yet due to infrastructure and fencing issues.  Furthermore, other than pigs, these can be hard to cost justify.  Since we be way po', everything has to pay for itself somehow.  Can't have many useless eaters.  That's why I'm retiring a bunch of old laying hens.  Fortunately we have a good market for organically fed stewing hens: they make terrific bone broth.

If I get ambitious to do so, I could write some interesting posts for the doomsteading forum.  Some might be provocative, like "Why I Dumped Aquaponics".  Heck, that statement alone could provoke a firestorm.

'Nuff said.
--Greg.  FM.  Radio.     Nick???
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 19, 2017, 06:57:26 PM
Hi Radio -

This place is basically safe.  G.O. isn't really a bad guy, he's just in need of some political education is all.  'Course, he likely thinks the same of me.

I hope Radio sticks as your nickname.  It's better than Nick, and has a fun relationship to the initials, FM.

I'm intrigued by your rural way of life.  I used be a country boy for reals (uh-oh, spelling police alert!). Somehow the small city life grabbed me, but I miss having wild animals as my nearest neighbors.

Thank You JRM. Your comment was very much appreciated.                                                                  Regards, GO
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 19, 2017, 07:02:41 PM
I have constantly praised and it is another well known fact that I admire many Leftist. May I just mention Chris Hedges, Jimmy Carter, Robert Reich, their are many others. That again is a matter of fact and is on record.

Chris Hedges?  Really? Wow!  What is it in Hedges that appeals to you?   If I'm to the left of you, Hedges must occupy another world.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 19, 2017, 07:19:15 PM
I have constantly praised and it is another well known fact that I admire many Leftist. May I just mention Chris Hedges, Jimmy Carter, Robert Reich, their are many others. That again is a matter of fact and is on record.

Chris Hedges?  Really? Wow!  What is it in Hedges that appeals to you?   If I'm to the left of you, Hedges must occupy another world.

His idea that we have a Moral obligation and imperative to rebel against what the government is doing to us is very appealing to me.

It also very difficult for me to not admire someone with a magnificent brain that he possesses. Brilliance of the kind that gentleman has leaves me awestruck.

His personal life of much good works is also difficult not to admire. He teaches is prison to criminals and really helps and sets many of them on to a better life. He becomes a father figure to many of them A very constructive worthwhile person.

You will always find him at any rally against oppression, he is always there lending his support. An admirable American Citizen with doing the right thing on his mind constantly.

What a speaker as well spellbinding So much to like about him. :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:


                                                   (http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/images/2012/09/blogs/prospero/20120922_bkp501.jpg)


Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 19, 2017, 07:32:49 PM
But, Ox, Hedges and I are almost identical in our emphasis on how we understand what's going on in American politics in recent decades.  We say corporations and monied interests are running the show, thus cutting out anyone who isn't  a millionaire or billionaire.

He and I are in fundamental agreement about the Right-libertarians -- that they simply want to deepen the plutocratic, neo-fascist injustices of our time.

He and I both see little, pathetic donald trump as a sad and pathetic, even grotesque, example of the astonishing overreach of these plutocratic hucksters. 

How can you possibly admire a man who, politically, is so very much like me in these respects?  When have you ever indicated fundamental agreement with my political views? 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 19, 2017, 07:53:04 PM
But, Ox, Hedges and I are almost identical in our emphasis on how we understand what's going on in American politics in recent decades.  We say corporations and monied interests are running the show, thus cutting out anyone who isn't  a millionaire or billionaire.

He and I are in fundamental agreement about the Right-libertarians -- that they simply want to deepen the plutocratic, neo-fascist injustices of our time.

He and I both see little, pathetic donald trump as a sad and pathetic, even grotesque, example of the astonishing overreach of these plutocratic hucksters. 

How can you possibly admire a man who, politically, is so very much like me in these respects?  When have you ever indicated fundamental agreement with my political views?

It's a very fine line of distinction and impossible to explain in this sort of venue. To try and give you a very broad conceptual analysis of where I am at let me try and just throw a simple statement your way.

Government itself and people in the government are two distinct things. When talking about a Trump, Hillary, Sanders, etc I am referencing individual human beings with the traits that you and I have JRM some good some evil, all of us different to varying degrees.

When talking government it becomes a cold inhuman oppressive entity that has become outsized, meddling, and enslaving. A monster devouring all of us.

Mr Hedges speaks bad of all political parties in my readings of him, and understands the government has become an oppressive monster.

To get into the exact nitty gritty and myriad of complexities that such an outlook entails is impossible.

Forgive my inability to express fully, but that is the broad picture of what I'm getting at.

You hate Trump, same here for me with Hillary, we both think Sanders is an OK guy but I don't like some of his views. No big deal. Their people like and hate who you want.

The government however is something else. It is not a human being. It has become another kind of entity. That's the drift anyway.

Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: g on February 19, 2017, 08:05:21 PM
Good night Diners, School vacation week here. Have three male grandchildren to babysit tomorrow, and have to hit the hay early.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 20, 2017, 07:18:16 AM


Learned that waterfowl can be really foul; pigs and goats don't work here yet due to infrastructure and fencing issues.  Furthermore, other than pigs, these can be hard to cost justify.  Since we be way po', everything has to pay for itself somehow.  Can't have many useless eaters.  That's why I'm retiring a bunch of old laying hens.  Fortunately we have a good market for organically fed stewing hens: they make terrific bone broth.

If I get ambitious to do so, I could write some interesting posts for the doomsteading forum.  Some might be provocative, like "Why I Dumped Aquaponics".  Heck, that statement alone could provoke a firestorm.

'Nuff said.
--Greg.  FM.  Radio.     Nick???

I'm on 1.6 acres in the country on a busy ass two lane road that might as well be a highway.  Speed limit changes to 50 mph about a mile from the house, so by the time people get here they're doing 55-60 mph.  We recently had a drunk driver flip three times, took out our chain link fence, and ended up in the middle of our front yard (which is why we don't let our kids play in the front).  It amazes me how many people build houses right on the fuckin' roads around here.  We're here because it's an inlaws house and she lets us live here without paying rent since she owns the place. 

At any rate, I've got five chickens currently, 4 hens and a rooster.  Two Rhode Island Reds, two Buff Orpingtons, and the rooster is a Red Star that was hatched by a broody hen here a few years ago (the previous rooster was eaten).  The most I've had at any one time was 15 birds.  We were selling eggs back then for three dollars a dozen which basically just paid for feed.  I might incubate a couple more birds this year, but the four hens we have are able to keep my family covered up in eggs.  A couple more would give us the extra eggs we need to make mayonnaise more often. 

We tried ducks a couple of years ago, and we quickly learned that they are much more difficult to keep than chickens.  The wild life (around here at least) go absolutely bat shit crazy for duck meat.  I think we've had 6 total and every one of them was lost to predation.  I haven't lost one chicken in five years of keeping chickens.  My wife actually wrangled a hawk one time to keep it off of our ducklings.  I couldn't believe my eyes when she did that, grabbed that fuckin' hawk by it's legs and threw it about 20 feet away onto it's head...my mouth was hanging open watching her do that.  The hawk got up and flew up on top of our garage and preened itself for a few minutes before flying off.  By then I had my site on em, but I didn't pull the trigger (we have a trailer park right next to us).  I've got plans to make a small pond, and when I do I'm going to try ducks again...just gotta make a little ducky Fort Knox I guess. 

Anyways, Radio...please write your article about why you dumped aquaponics.  I would love to read an article on that exact topic.  RE is all about aquaponics, and I've ran into other people that are all about it as well.  I've never tried, but I'm of the opinion that it's not worth the effort for several reasons:

1.  It requires infrastructure that would be difficult to procure in a shtf scenario (although I think one could employ bamboo for a good bit of that infrastructure).

2.  I like growing food in dirt, where it's supposed to grow.

3.  It's more complex in some ways than just growing in dirt.

4.  It requires electricity.

I could probably go on.  I have never tried it for the above reasons.  However I've remained on the fence about it because there are aspects about it that are very appealing.  Fortunately I have many other projects that are in line before aquaponics.  Projects like a soldier fly larvae operation to feed the chickens (have the SFL delivering themselves to the coop through their exit shoot).  Building a rocket mass heater.  Vermicomposting operation.  Pond build.  Spring is around the corner so I will be busy with annual seeds. 

Anyways, please do write about your experience with aquaponics.  I'm EXTREMELY interested to hear what you have to say on the topic. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 20, 2017, 07:38:03 AM
You hate Trump, same here for me with Hillary, we both think Sanders is an OK guy but I don't like some of his views. No big deal. Their people like and hate who you want.

I do not hate trump.  I'm very worried about his presence in the White House, along with all of the people he's appointed to various roles in the US government.
I think he's wildly incompetent for the position of president of the USA, that he's mentally ill (malignant narcissism) and dangerous....  But none of this leads me to hate him.  It's his mental illness which caused him to want to be president in the first place, and one does not hate mentally ill people because of their sickness, any more than one hates someone because they have some other kind of disease.  trump should be impeached and removed from office as soon as possible. 

He's dangerous. I do not hate him.

I'm glad you are willing and able to listen to people from a broad array of political persuasions.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: jdwheeler42 on February 20, 2017, 10:10:56 AM
If I get ambitious to do so, I could write some interesting posts for the doomsteading forum.  Some might be provocative, like "Why I Dumped Aquaponics".  Heck, that statement alone could provoke a firestorm.
LOL... you provided sufficient explanation when you said "We have 7 acres...."  Aquaponics is an intensive system, it only makes sense in small spaces.  Not much point to it if you have the room.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: Eddie on February 20, 2017, 11:59:12 AM
Would love to hear about your experiences with aquaculture. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I'm not dogmatic, especially since I don't even have my system up and running, even though I built one two years ago. I've forgotten what little I learned in my training, which was only one day anyway.

Most super-great techniques for growing food don't work for me. For instance, I'd need at least a hundred 4X4 raised beds to grow as much food as Mel Bartholomew claims he can grow in ten.

We bought starts this weekend and the current grown-daughter-in-residence put most of them out. The weather here has been like April, but now I look for a late frost.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 20, 2017, 01:08:48 PM


Most super-great techniques for growing food don't work for me. For instance, I'd need at least a hundred 4X4 raised beds to grow as much food as Mel Bartholomew claims he can grow in ten.

Ain't that the truth.  It's never as organized as what Mel seems to do as well. 

Quote
We bought starts this weekend and the current grown-daughter-in-residence put most of them out. The weather here has been like April, but now I look for a late frost.

It's been in the 60's and even high 70's frequently lately.  It's normal for it to warm up around valentines day and then get cold again.  We usually get a snow in March.  My peach trees are blossoming which means I likely won't have any peaches this year because if it freezes again...which it will...

All around it's been a very warm winter for us. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: JRM on February 20, 2017, 01:28:51 PM


Most super-great techniques for growing food don't work for me. For instance, I'd need at least a hundred 4X4 raised beds to grow as much food as Mel Bartholomew claims he can grow in ten.

Ain't that the truth.  It's never as organized as what Mel seems to do as well. 

Quote
We bought starts this weekend and the current grown-daughter-in-residence put most of them out. The weather here has been like April, but now I look for a late frost.

It's been in the 60's and even high 70's frequently lately.  It's normal for it to warm up around valentines day and then get cold again.  We usually get a snow in March.  My peach trees are blossoming which means I likely won't have any peaches this year because if it freezes again...which it will...

All around it's been a very warm winter for us.


Depending on how many peach trees you have, and how long the freezes are expected to last, you may be able to mitigate freezing of your blossoms with either covering, small fires near/under the trees or spraying water in a mist (if I remember right).  There may be other methods I don't know about.  And I have no direct experience with such techniques myself.  It may be worth exploring the various methods...?

If it were me? I'd consider a combination of covering with small fires nearby -- with the fires thing making sense only because the worst danger is usually only for a few hours, at most.

http://www.raintreenursery.com/plantcare/2013/02/protecting-early-blooms-from-frost/ (http://www.raintreenursery.com/plantcare/2013/02/protecting-early-blooms-from-frost/)
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: azozeo on February 20, 2017, 01:35:58 PM


Most super-great techniques for growing food don't work for me. For instance, I'd need at least a hundred 4X4 raised beds to grow as much food as Mel Bartholomew claims he can grow in ten.

Ain't that the truth.  It's never as organized as what Mel seems to do as well. 

Quote
We bought starts this weekend and the current grown-daughter-in-residence put most of them out. The weather here has been like April, but now I look for a late frost.

It's been in the 60's and even high 70's frequently lately.  It's normal for it to warm up around valentines day and then get cold again.  We usually get a snow in March.  My peach trees are blossoming which means I likely won't have any peaches this year because if it freezes again...which it will...

All around it's been a very warm winter for us.

Kathy, my roomie, has an apricot tree out back which should flower next week.
I just throw a clear plastic thin tarp (visqueen) that I use for automotive paint-spray over the tree.
I have to use a ladder as the tree is about 10 feet high. I do half at a time. Only for night time though.
We're at 4000 ft elev. here.
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: luciddreams on February 20, 2017, 02:17:06 PM
Yeah, I suppose a tarp could do the trick.  I actually have a fire pit at the center of my food forest...trees are around the pit.  The closest tree is probably about eight feet from the fire pit. 

A tarp could work though. 
Title: Re: Driverless Carz & The Pricetag of Civilization
Post by: azozeo on March 08, 2017, 03:43:57 AM
2017-03-06 - Driverless shuttles make their debut in San Ramon (California):
http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/03/06/san-ramon-driverless-shuttles-make-their-debut/ (http://www.eastbaytimes.com/2017/03/06/san-ramon-driverless-shuttles-make-their-debut/)
Title: Driverless Carz- 3-7-17 Airbus reveals a modular, self-piloting car
Post by: azozeo on March 10, 2017, 11:23:14 AM
TechCrunch.com 3-7-17… “Airbus reveals a modular, self-piloting flying car concept”

 

This seems like such a great idea, and it goes along with what Corey Goode and David Wilcock talked about in the latest Cosmic Disclosure (transcript is here). They mentioned something like this, where eventually the quad props would be replaced by antigravity devices. Corey had this to say on his FB page:

    “In a few short years we will be seeing craft like these filling the skies. We spoke of this on the most recent episode of Cosmic Disclosure. CG. Airbus reveals a modular, self-piloting flying car concept…”

And doesn’t “Vahana” sound amazingly similar to “Vimana“? (“a car or a chariot of the gods”)

I could handle that!!! How about you!!?? More detailed information may be found at ItalDesign.

    “Airbus… Vahana flying autonomous vehicle project… at this year’s Geneva Motor Show, it’s showing off a concept design created in partnership with Italdesign. The demonstration vehicle offers modular functionality, meaning it an operate both on the ground and in the air, and Airbus thinks it’s one potential answer to the growing problem of urban traffic congestion.

    “The concept vehicle is intended to work with others to form a network that can be summoned on demand, with passengers hailing a ride form [from] an app on their mobile device. The capsule-based design can connect to either ground or air conveyance modules, letting customers specific their preferred method of transit. It’s also designed to be used in concert with other, existing transportation methods for maximum efficiency.

    “There’s a third part of Pop.Up that ensures this whole project touches all bases when it comes to current tech hype – an interface that will respond and interact with the user in a “fully virtual environment” while in transit. They’ve thought of everything.”

————————————————————

Airbus reveals a modular, self-piloting flying car concept

Airbus has been talking about its Vahana flying autonomous vehicle project for a while now, but at this year’s Geneva Motor Show, it’s showing off a concept design created in partnership with Italdesign. The demonstration vehicle offers modular functionality, meaning it an operate both on the ground and in the air, and Airbus thinks it’s one potential answer to the growing problem of urban traffic congestion.

As you can see, it’s suitably sci-fi in its design sensibilities, but it’s designed with practicality in mind. The concept vehicle is intended to work with others to form a network that can be summoned on demand, with passengers hailing a ride form an app on their mobile device. The capsule-based design can connect to either ground or air conveyance modules, letting customers specific their preferred method of transit. It’s also designed to be used in concert with other, existing transportation methods for maximum efficiency.

Airbus and Italdesign call their creation the ‘Pop.Up System,’ which includes the artificial intelligence platform that uses what it knows about any individual user, and available routes and transit options to determine the best travel options. The main vehicle itself is a passenger capsule, which holds the rider and which can be paired with either ground and air modules, as well as, Airbus suggests, with hyperloop systems down the line once that tech becomes more widely available.

There’s a third part of Pop.Up that ensures this whole project touches all bases when it comes to current tech hype – an interface that will respond and interact with the user in a “fully virtual environment” while in transit. They’ve thought of everything.

Well, except making this thing real: It’s very much still a concept, though its 8.5-foot long monocoque carbon-fibre passenger pod is built-to scale and on the show floor at Geneva, as are the wheeled ground module and quadcopter drone air transit system.

It’s unlikely to ever be ferrying passengers around, at least in this state, and in the near future, but it’s a very cool design that can at least make us want to work a bit harder to get to a place where it is a viable, everyday option for navigating our expanding and increasingly dense cities.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ziaN1xo3CHo&fs=1